Overthrow or lost possession?

[mitcharf]

Last night in an ASA slow pitch softball game (although I think the rule here is the same regardless), a play occurred which made me wonder about the right ruling. The situation was nobody out, no base runners. Batter hits a ground ball to the second baseman. The second baseman makes a low throw to first base. When the throw is released, the batter is not yet at first base. While the throw is in flight, the batter touches (and overruns in foul territory) first base. The thrown ball hits the first baseman's glove, but is never even in the glove, as and rolls away toward the dugout. The batter heads for second base. Before he reaches second, the ball rolls into the dugout. The umpires award the batter third base.

The way I see it, there are only two rules which could apply here, and in either case the umpires made the wrong call.

If this is ruled a simple overthrow, then per rule 8.5.G, the runner should have been awarded two bases from the time of the throw. Since the throw was made while the runner had not yet reached first base, then second base would be the proper award.

If it is ruled that a fielder (the first baseman in this case) lost possession of a ball which then leaves live ball territory, then (per 8.5.G.1) the runner should be awarded one base from the time the ball leaves play. Again, second base.

So I'm pretty sure that the umpires got it wrong last night either way. Since the batter was on my team, I didn't say anything, and neither did the other team. But it got me wondering, which leads to my question:

In the scenario from last night, the two rules had the same effect, because of where the runner was located over the course of the play. But what if it had been a slow runner and/or a harder throw? What if everything happened the same defensively, but this time the batter was still on the way to first base when the ball left play. This could easily happen on a hard throw with a slow runner. The first baseman could fail to catch the thow and deflect it into the dugout. In that case, is this an overthrow (2 base award -- 2nd base) or a lost possession (1 base award, 1st base)?

My thinking is that it's an overthrow, since the first baseman never really had the ball. Is that accurate? Thanks in advance!

[RockRocks787]

Seems to me that was the right call. The runner was past first base when the ball went out of play, and because he was not yet at second when the ball went out of play, he was awarded two bases, which puts him at third.

Edit: didn't realize that there is a difference in ruling between an overthrow and a low throw. If that is indeed the case, then it does sound like the ruling was incorrect.

[mitcharf]

Seems to me that was the right call. The runner was past first base when the ball went out of play, and because he was not yet at second when the ball went out of play, he was awarded two bases, which puts him at third.

Edit: didn't realize that there is a difference in ruling between an overthrow and a low throw. If that is indeed the case, then it does sound like the ruling was incorrect.

I think either way it would be a bad call. If there were only overthrows to consider, then it doesn't matter when the ball goes out of play, it only matters when the ball was thrown -- and in this case, the ball was thrown before the batter reached first base.

If this isn't considered an overthrow, then you do look at when the ball goes out of play, but the award is also only one base.

I think that in this case, it's considered an overthrow. The ASA rules define an overthrow as:

A thrown ball from a fielder goes:
A. beyond the boundary lines of the playing field (dead ball territory), or
B. becomes a blocked ball.

Nothing is mentioned about whether the ball is low or high or off target.