Did the Head Umpire make this right call?

[Rix]

At an All-Star softball tournament this weekend, during the championship game, our team was on the field, 1 out, runners on 2n and 3rd.

Hit fly ball to short right field. Ball looks like it's going to be a hit, but outfielder makes a great run and catches ball for 2nd out. Both runners are caught off the bases and have to run back. Runner on 3rd touches base and runs home for a run, while 2nd base runner gets caught by the right fielders throw to 2nd base for the 3rd out.

The runner at 3rd made it home very close to the same time as the out at second, but for the sake of this argument let's say she did get home prior to the out at 2nd.

What is the call? Does the run count or not.

Initially, the umpire called the run as scored. But after we lodged a protest, the tournament director brought the lead umpire who reviewed the play with both umpires for 15 minutes, then reversed the run.

Our team ended up wining by 2 runs, so the point is moot, but I'd like to see what the right call should have been.

Thanks,

[team mom]

The out was a force out, therefore, the run does not score. I believe the ruling was correct.

7.12 Unless two are out, the status of a following runner is not affected by a preceding
runner’s failure to touch or retouch a base. If, upon appeal, the preceding runner is the third
out, no runners following him shall score. If such third out is the result of a force play,
neither preceding nor following runners shall score.

[PetroGuy]

I believe the rules in softball are the same as baseball for this. It is a common misconception that this is a force out since just touching the base is all the is required to get the out (as opposed to tagging the runner out). Technically a runner is only forced to the next base by a preceding runner. The throw to the base to get the out on the failure to tag is actually a live ball appeal play. This makes it a timing play. In the scenario presented, the run would score since the runner crossed home plate before the appeal was made at second. I think the ump made the correct call and the TD blew the call.

[team mom]

Petroguy is correct. I found this example in the MLB rules that is spot on.

Example: Not a force out. One out. Runner on first and third. Batter flies out. Two out. Runner
on third tags up and scores. Runner on first tries to retouch before throw from fielder reaches first
baseman, but does not get back in time and is out. Three outs. If, in umpire’s judgment, the runner from
third touched home before the ball was held at first base, the run counts.

[OhioTex]

Not so fast..... This is a timing play! (oops I drafted before petro resounded, I agree with petro as you will see)
(Not sure the governing rules of your tourney, but I suspect same as ncaa MLB and NFHS)

The proceeding runner (home) legally touched all bases including home before the third out (at second) was made.. And the third out was not a force out. The batter-runner was retired (out 2). Removing the force at that moment. FYI, there was never a force on runner at two because no runner on first.

As described, The out at second is NOT technically a force out, it is a failure to re touch base in time. it is required, yes, but not technically a 'force out' in it's strict definition ( we do generally call it that of course, and in this case the distinction is important). The out at second is technically a live ball appeal when fielder tags a runner or the appropriate base before runner required to re touch does (aka tags up).


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Was the decision on the field, out at second happened before runner reached home. If so good call. If the overide was not about timing bad call. Sounds odd someone would over rule the on site first ump call if it was a visual
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[OhioTex]

Commentary, what age players? You said all star so I assume a competitive quality tournament.. But if the run not scoreing (and the over rule) was based on the fact the third out was a force out and not a timing play, I have to say very weak umpiring... Especially since there was never a force on the runner at second, ever.

[team mom]

The runner at 3rd made it home very close to the same time as the out at second, but for the sake of this argument let's say she did get home prior to the out at 2nd.

What is the call? Does the run count or not.

Initially, the umpire called the run as scored. But after we lodged a protest, the tournament director brought the lead umpire who reviewed the play with both umpires for 15 minutes, then reversed the run.

Before calling out the umps for a bad call, we would need to know why the original call was reversed. If it was reversed because of the "force out," then bad call. If it was reversed due to timing (out was made before runner touched home,) then it is a judgment call. The original post said it was close, so maybe it could have gone either way.

[danmcc]

Good stuff, I learn a great deal from these scenarios.

[OhioTex]

agree,

Before calling out the umps for a bad call, we would need to know why the original call was reversed. If it was reversed because of the "force out," then bad call. If it was reversed due to timing (out was made before runner touched home,) then it is a judgment call. The original post said it was close, so maybe it could have gone either way.

Said same thing in my first post..

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Was the decision on the field, out at second happened before runner reached home. If so good call. If the overide was not about timing bad call. Sounds odd someone would over rule the on site first ump call if it was a visual
....

[team mom]

oops That you did. I should have assumed you got it right!