Earned Run problem and some substitution strangeness

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FTMSupport
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Re: Earned Run problem and some substitution strangeness

Post by FTMSupport » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:43 pm

This is not quite true... errors made against runners (not batters) can still be earned runs if subsequent plays would have allowed the runner to score had the error not been make. For example, runner on first, steal of second, error allowed him to be safe. If next batter hits a home run, then both runs are earned. If however the runner advances to home because of passed balls for example, and the batter winds up making an out, then the run is not earned. Subtle rules, but we account for them correctly, and many people are not aware that is the rule.
nicett
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Re: Earned Run problem and some substitution strangeness

Post by nicett » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:14 pm

Not sure I agree with you FTM. Rule 10.16 (c) states: "No run shall be earned when scored by a runner whose presence on the bases is prolonged by an error, if such runner would have been put out by errorless play."

In your example, the runner's presence on the bases has been prolonged by the error, and therefore, his run would be scored as unearned.

Additionally, the home run would also be unearned because he would not have batted if not for the error. If the error would not have occurred, then the runner would have been the third out and the inning would have been over. See 10.16(a)(3) example: "With two out, Abel reaches first on an error by the shortstop in misplaying a ground ball. Baker hits a home run. Charlie strikes out. Two runs have scored, but none is earned, because Abel’s at-bat should have been the third out of the inning, as reconstructed without the error."
Last edited by nicett on Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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brentwalker
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Re: Earned Run problem and some substitution strangeness

Post by brentwalker » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:35 pm

CaN: how many outs were there before the error on 1B, if two outs then no earned run. if 0 or 1 out then two earned runs assuming runner on first base reached that base without error.
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FTMSupport
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Re: Earned Run problem and some substitution strangeness

Post by FTMSupport » Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:17 pm

We hate to use Wikipedia as an "official source", but please read the article here as it describes situations where errors can still lead to runs being earned:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_run" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
nicett
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Re: Earned Run problem and some substitution strangeness

Post by nicett » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:15 pm

FTM, in your example, I believe your example would be correct if there were less than two (2) outs. However, with two (2) outs (as stated by the previous post), Wikipedia is stating that any runs scored after an error with two outs are to be scored as unearned. Wikipedia states "A run is counted as unearned when: . . . A baserunner scores after the third out would have been made except for an error other than catcher's interference."

Catcher's Interference is not counted because the batter never put the ball in play; therefore, the official scorer has no way to determine if the batter would have hit the ball or not. MLB rule 10.16 also accounts for this scenario.

Basically, any run that scores after an error has been made with two (2) outs will be scored as unearned because if the error would not have been committed, the batter and/or runner would have been the third out and the inning over.

As I write this response, I can only wonder: Is the app scoring correctly earned runs when an error is committed with two (2) outs?
davidlimbaugh
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Re: Earned Run problem and some substitution strangeness

Post by davidlimbaugh » Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:14 pm

I have scored 42 innings with this app and have run across an occurrence where an earned run was scored but was not earned....

K

1B

E4 on a force out at second

1B to center - runner from second scores

HBP

K

K

I would score this UNEARNED. If force as second is out 2 the 1B to center does not drive in a run nor does the HBP. See what I mean? App scored this as an EARNED Run
sombb
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Re: Earned Run problem and some substitution strangeness

Post by sombb » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:13 pm

FTMSupport wrote:...
FTMSupport wrote:... We account for many of these subtleties in iScore. Errors on pick off attempts are even more strange because without the error that allowed the runner to advance, there is nothing to say the runner would have been out (so the inning would have proceeded anyway if it was just an attempt). We do not believe that a runner advancing a base on an error always makes that run unearned...
Had one today where player safe on error, followed immediately by strike out to end the inning. FTM awarded an RBI to player safe on the error. Why the RBI on an obviosly unearned run?
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FTMSupport
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Re: Earned Run problem and some substitution strangeness

Post by FTMSupport » Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:04 pm

RBI's and Unearned runs are completely different things. There can be 2 outs, a batter can make it to first on an error. Can then make it to second on another error. And third on yet another error. The batter than hits a single, it is still an RBI for the batter even though the run is unearned.

Earned / Unearned runs are stats that attempt to show a pitcher's performance.

RBI are intended to show the batter's performance regardless of earned vs unearned.

If you can give more details of the exact situation, we can take a look.
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