How to score? Apparent Double, but then Out on Appeal - Missed First Base (answered/ pending user response back if need)

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Tacho47
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:36 am

How to score? Apparent Double, but then Out on Appeal - Missed First Base (answered/ pending user response back if need)

Postby Tacho47 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:21 am

IPad, IPhone, IScore v5.020

Situation:
Batter hits a double. While on 2nd base and before the next pitch or play, the defense appeals R2 for having missed first base. R2 is called out!

What has to be scored in IScore to receive the right data?
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OhioTex
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Location: Columbus OH

Re: How to score?

Postby OhioTex » Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:27 am

@ support - opportunity raised for potential future enhancement consideration to ask follow up questions on "Out: Missed Base" for statistical accuracy and play by play descriptiveness.


@Tacho47 - Juergen

good scenario.

how best to score... apparent double, but then batter-runner out on appeal for missing first base... how best to enter in iscore will depend on your priorities.... (a) Are you most concerned with play-by-play description for Fans watching remotely? or (b) are you most concerned with accurately reflecting stats, boxscore and scorecard without manual editing ? plus (c) how did defense physically appeal the play (pitcher throw to 1B or 2B tag batter-runner etc.) as that impacts the putout assignment ?

As you know, by rule, (ORB citations below) the batter who missed first base and was out on successful appeal at first should NOT be credited with hit. plus the fielder involved with the appeal out should be credited with a putout (by rule credited with a put out but no assists given on appeal. Correction - Assists should be credited,).

If i were scoring this real time, with fans watching remotely, i would "score it like i see it" , (iscore > in play > double > hit location/strength/type > out > missed base). fans would get as reasonable an on field play by play description as practical. I would then manually correct stats post game as needed to remove the batters hit and credit the correct fielder if the default 2B was incorrect.

If i were scoring this just for statistical reasons, and did not want to bother with manual stat correction post game, I would simplify iscore entry to ( iscore> out type (ground/line/fly) > hit location/strength/type > fielder involved). box score, scorebook and stats would be technically correct (but sacrificing some play by play description in the process.

In either case, I would use notes to clarify what happen (and remind myself to double check/correct stats post game).

Iscore could handle this a bit more cleanly from both a statistical and play by play perspective, If after an entry of "OUT: Missed Base", it asked two follow up questions, a) What fielders involved and b) did the hit count - but currently iscore assumes the hit counts or you would not have entered the hit and the fielder involved is same as base runner is at. Hence the two methods described above for entry .

please post back if any follow up questions .
/
OhioTex

.........Rule Reference...................
Official Rules of Baseball

fielder credits..
MLB Rule 9.09(a) The official scorer shall credit a putout to each fielder who (1) catches a ball that is in flight, whether fair or foul; (2) catches a batted or thrown ball and tags a base to put out a batter or runner; (Comment:: The official scorer shall credit a fielder with a putout if such fielder catches a thrown ball and tags a base to record an out on an appeal play.) or (3) tags a runner when the runner is off the base to which the runner is entitled.

batter credits..
MLB Rule 9.06 d) When the batter, after making a safe hit, is called out for having failed to touch a base, the last base the batter reached safely shall determine if the official scorer shall credit him with a one- base hit, a two-base hit or a three-base hit. If a batter-runner is called out after missing home plate, the official scorer shall credit him with a three-base hit. If a batter-runner is called out for missing third base, the official scorer shall credit him with a two-base hit. If a batter-runner is called out for missing second base, the official scorer shall credit him with a one-base hit. If a batter-runner is called out for missing first base, the official scorer shall charge him with a time at bat, but no hit.
Last edited by OhioTex on Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tacho47
Posts: 34
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:36 am

Re: How to score?

Postby Tacho47 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:13 am

@Ohio

I really appreciate your wall of text ;-)

No, it doesn't depend on MY priorities, it's a question of scorekeeping accuracy!

By referring to MLB, an appeal could also - as stated in my situation described - be made by the pitchers throw to the base missed. If the appeal had been granted by the umpires, an assist should be credited to the pitcher and a putout to the fielder involved in the appeal play (here 1B).

I really like your idea, of how IScore could/should handle this: OUT: MIssed Base, prompted two follow up questions, a) What fielders are involved in and b) did the hit count
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OhioTex
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Re: How to score? Apparent Double, but then Out on Appeal - Missed First Base (responded, and Future.Enhancement)))

Postby OhioTex » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:18 am

(the extended text is an attempt to provide as complete an answer as possible given the limited information and making assumptions on your needs)

i stand corrected on no assist being credited on a missed base. you are correct, an assist should be credited to ALL appropriate players involved depending on how the appeal play happened, (mlb reference included below). iScore handles that and it does not change my overall response, just adds clarity, if P-1B was the appeal in your scenario, simply, tap P-1B, for fielder involved. The assist will be credited to pitcher and the put out to first basemen..

from an official scoring and statistical perspective the double never happened. so simply enter in iscore as
iscore > out> hit location/type > P to 1B. the batter gets AB and no hit, 1B gets the put out. and pitcher the assist.

however you can choose to enter differently if you need, based on your preferences and priorities. for me, as i mentioned, If were entering it with fans watching remotely, I would rather have the extra (non statistical) play by play information included and then correct the stats later, post game either in editor or by manual stat over ride. so yes , you have a choice.

as mentioned, given your post, i would like to see support add to its future list for consideration some enhancements to " Out> Missed Base" to add some more follow up questions to help include fielder choice and if appropriate, remove the hit .

but as the program stands now, can enter as described and be correct.

-------- rule reference ----
Assist to fielders involved, based on type of appeal.
    MLB Rule 9.10(a)(1) Comment: ...If a putout results from an appeal play within the natural course of play, the official scorer shall give assists to each fielder, except the fielder making the putout, whose action led to the putout. If a putout results from an appeal play initiated by the pitcher throwing to a fielder after the previous play has ended, the official scorer shall credit the pitcher, and only the pitcher, with an assist.
Last edited by OhioTex on Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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FTMSupport
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Re: How to score? Apparent Double, but then Out on Appeal - Missed First Base (responded, and Future.Enhancement)))

Postby FTMSupport » Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:16 am

For appeal plays in general, the way you would score it is to Undo whatever was entered, and re-enter it as the end result of the appeal. An "appeal" is basically like an "instant replay". The appeal itself is not how the batter / runner made an out.

In the case described, the batter / runner is out for missing first base, which actually means it was just a force out at first base. To enter this, just Undo, then enter Out -> Ground Out -> 1-3 (this is what MLB Rule 9.10(a)(1) is saying the correct ball handling would be for the out).

With an appeal, it always has to happen before the next pitch, so using Undo is the correct and best way to handle the appeal. If you want to add a note to say there was an appeal that took place, that would be fine, but as far as the record of the game goes, what actually gets scored is the result after the appeal.
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