Alternate scorecard formats (future.feature.request Ideas)

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brentwalker
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Re: Alternate scorecard formats

Post by brentwalker » Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:08 am

Ok, let me clear the air just a bit.

Back in the 1980's there was an organization that was run by volunteers for the purpose of collecting baseball game data and making it freely available to the public. They devised a method whereby those using the system could use a common language as well as common scoring techniques. It is these techniques that so many today find helpful in recreating the exact game time situation for any at-bat. There are only a few tidbits of information still available on this system. I would refer you to David Cortesi's website (http://dcortesi.home.mindspring.com/scoring/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) where he describes his involvement in the volunteer organization and his freely available documentation.

Alex Reisner has implemented his version of what was originally called Project Scoresheet. He calls his system Situational Scorekeeping and has recently renamed it to Reisner Scorekeeping (http://www.reisnerscorekeeping.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). He has taken the very basic scorecard (see David Cortesi's website) and has created a very nice looking .pdf form of that scorecard. He has also eliminated some of the backtracking required using the traditional method as well as Project Scoresheet. Many of us today use Alex's scoresheet to score our games. He has produced a spiral bound version of his scorecard that many of us has purchased.

Now that many of us use iScore, we would like to be able to print this same data out on the Situational or Project Scoresheet format. iScore already collects ALL of the necessary data, its simply a matter of presentation and read-ability. I have not purchased any new scorebooks from Alex and do not plan to now that I have moved on to iScore. I would guess that those that have used Alex's scoresheets will likely not be buying any more from him either but this is only my assumption.

Anyway please review Davids site as well as Alex's site. I look forward to seeing iScore use this "better" scorecard format.

thanks,
Brent Walker
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brentwalker
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Re: Alternate scorecard formats

Post by brentwalker » Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:07 am

Just did a quick review of the two scoresheets, the Project Scoresheet and the Reisner Scorekeeping scoresheet.

Both scoresheets have:
1. Batter order, position in/out
2. Place for recording balls/strikes/foul balls
3. Place for Additional batters
4. Place to record pitchers of record and pitching stats inluding in/out
5. Game detail data, date/time, runs/inning, Attendence, sky conditions, wind, temp, field condition, witness or scored at location, umpires
6. Consecutive numbering on at bats vs traditional columns per inning.


What is different from Project Scoresheet:
1. Reisner combines the traditional scoresheet with Project Scoresheet by including the baseball diamond in the batters at bat cell opposed to three separate lines describing an at bat
2. Each at bat records all existing on base runners within the batters at bat box, included on traditional scoresheets
3. Pitch totals recorded by pitcher by inning, running total, can be calculated using traditional scoresheets
4. Batter at bat totals not included on Project Scoresheet, however is included on traditional scoresheets.

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: For me there are two major features I like most out of the Project Scoresheet and Reisner Scorekeeping.
:arrow: 1. From Project Scoresheet: Each at bat box is consecutively numbered. This allows me to make notes at the bottom of my page concerning any additional comments I cannot capture using tradition coding methods, like diving catch, caught ball by climbing fence saving homerun, etc. Also allows me to record the exact point in time that a pitcher change was made or batter substitute was made.
:arrow: 2. From Reisner Scorekeeping: recording the exact situation for an at bat, like runners on base at time of at-bat, what happened to a given runner, like stolen base after 3rd pitch. This is VERY useful since there is no backtraking required to understand who moved where during an at bat. This perspective is very different than traditional methods that simply show the progression of a batter/base runner through the course of an inning, rarely considering how that runner was moved from base to base. See Reisner Scorekeeping for more detail (http://www.reisnerscorekeeping.com/how" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).
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FTMSupport
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Re: Alternate scorecard formats

Post by FTMSupport » Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:00 pm

For the issue of notations correlating to a box in the scorecard, we actually have a solution that will allow the notes to become part of the traditional scorecards and you will know which box it applies to. This will be coming in a future release.

We understand the desire for the Reisner format, but we can not just go creating that format without having proper permission. If there are any copyrights attached to the format, we need to have permission to use it. Until that happens, we really can not even consider it is an option.

If anyone has a link to a site that says "here is a format that is available for the general public to use in any way they want", then we can use that format because permission has been given. We have been unable to find that kind of permission to use the Reisner format.

We also looked at the dcortesi site, and it seems to use that this is almost just a play by play recap, but done in a format that is easy to write down during the game. Since we actually capture all the information, and print the report after the fact, it does not seem this would necessarily be the best way to represent the game.

The main reason the Traditional Scorecard is included in our outputs is that every Youth game played in the country REQUIRES a traditional scorebook to be kept. That is the league rules. Other formats are nice, but not required, and we would like to continue exploring them if there are not copyrights involved, and if they add to the information we already provide in different formats, or make the data more readable.

Shorthand notations are not more readable when we have all the data required to make completely readable notations. We would actually be more inclined to make a new format that is "human readable" instead of shorthand based that also includes all the information you are looking for. We actually think it might be worth investing time in creating a new format based on computer entry of data (where ALL details are available) rather than spending time on a format that was created to allow quick notations in real time at the game. We capture the real time data and report after the fact --- that gives us MUCH more flexibility.
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FTMSupport
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Re: Alternate scorecard formats

Post by FTMSupport » Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:57 pm

fwiw... we would love to be at the forefront of creating a new reporting format that shows the in depth information people are not getting from a traditional scorecard, and yet is simple to understand for everyone. If you guys have ideas on what would be needed to accomplish this, we would love to hear it.

It really sounds like what people are after is a Play by Play listing where the "current situation" is very clear with each play. So for example, any time you see a Single, you also see who was on which base, how many outs there were, etc. We really feel that with the data captured the way iScore does, we can report the information in ways even better than what has been done by hand.

We just need to know what people need... maybe we can create an "iScore Community" scorecard reporting standard.
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brentwalker
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Re: Alternate scorecard formats

Post by brentwalker » Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:12 pm

Yes, yes, now we are talkin'... I don't really care what format it is as long as it is readable for each at bat. That is the main reason some of us have chosen the Reisner method. Not really because it is cool, looks nice but because you can see the events that happened for each at bat including who was on base, how the runners moved from base to base, when a foul ball was hit and what the count was, what the count was when the runner stole a base. But we can talk more if you create a collaboration zone for scorecards. I would love to participate in that and help create a "new" standard scoring format.

Yes it is nice to present your parents with a childs batting average at the end of the season and I would have loved to have something that would have made that job easier when i was coaching Little League (coached for 13 years). I was on the board of a LL (as UIC) that sent two teams to the Little League World series and all we really cared about was having a book in the event of a protest or rain-out. It was sometimes used by the divisional vice presidents to help determine all-stars. Not to mention that LL required a book to be kept, even though most parents keeping the book had no clue what they were doing. Most LL coaches keep their own books mainly for passing out player stats at the end of the season just for keep sakes for the parents. But the stats were just a "nice" thing to have.

But now my son and I are trying to generate stats for a potential opportunity at a college scholarship (D1 or D2 schools). Coaches want to see his stats, the game scorecards when he pitched and how he performed. For these reasons the requirements for High School baseball are far more necessary than that of Little League. I have already shown this app to many on our HS team and several have already purchased the app for their son. Several on our Select Team have also purchased the app as well.

Sorry if if feels as if I am beating a dead horse but time is of the essence, at least for me and my son since he is a junior, a very VERY important year for this kind of stuff.

Thanks for listening,
Brent
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brentwalker
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Re: Alternate scorecard formats

Post by brentwalker » Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:13 pm

Oh, and by the way I did respond to Alex Reisner personally since he sends me emails to purchase new scorebooks asking him to respond to your requests. Who knows maybe all of us who are using his scorecards could do the same thing, maybe he will be encouraged to respond.
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FTMSupport
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Re: Alternate scorecard formats

Post by FTMSupport » Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:29 pm

fyi... on the stats for your son, we are very close to launching the "Player Spotlight" websites based on the feedback in the other thread. It is going to be $9.99/year, and will allow you to have everything about a single player on a single site... all the stats for all teams they have played for, and all game listing info. Just like the Team Websites, but focused on individual players just like yours. We think this is potentially a great market as it not only allows for "college resumes", but allows for parents to say "hey grandma, go look at this site to see everything Timmy has been up to".

Anyway, watch for it either tonight or tomorrow.
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brentwalker
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Re: Alternate scorecard formats

Post by brentwalker » Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:38 pm

cool, thanks
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OhioTex
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Re: Alternate scorecard formats

Post by OhioTex » Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:11 pm

thrlled about player spotlight... coming to a web page near you soon... great idea you all.

on the alternate format.. sounds like an opportunity to start fresh, build off the other formats and create a new standard. "play by play on a page the i score way"
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FTMSupport
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Re: Alternate scorecard formats

Post by FTMSupport » Sun Mar 07, 2010 3:31 am

Just to follow up... the "Player Spotlights" concept has been launched. You can find more information in this posting:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1008
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