iPad 1) "FORCE OUT" Not Asking for Fielders involved & 2) D3S PB WP Credits (future.feature.request)

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Tacho47
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iPad 1) "FORCE OUT" Not Asking for Fielders involved & 2) D3S PB WP Credits (future.feature.request)

Post by Tacho47 » Mon May 29, 2017 11:46 pm

Bases Loaded, 2 Outs

Next batter strikes out on a passed ball. The Catcher recovers the ball and steps on home plate to retire R3 instead of throwing to 1st Base to retire the Batter who had taken off to 1st Base.

For my understanding, this should be scored "K FC" for the Batter and "unassisted out catcher" (whatever notation system is used) on R3. How to tap in this play to receive the right data (strike out, NO PB because of FC and the put out on the catcher)?

Best regards
Juergen
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OhioTex
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Re: How to score?

Post by OhioTex » Tue May 30, 2017 4:53 am

iscore handles this straight forward..
(see end note for possible confusion caused by the dual context of FC used sometime by baseball scorekeepers)
(to that end, I really enjoy your posts like these that make me stop and think more deeply on topics, I hope you keep it up)

Situation:
  • 2 outs, Bases loaded (R1,R2,R3) Batter has 2 strikes... next action: pitch is a strike (called or swung) BUT catcher does not catch the pitch (batter not called out by ump) and so batter runs to first while Catcher recovers the ball and steps on home before R3 advances to home for third out..
iScore Entry (i.e. Sequence of Buttons to Tap)
  • STRIKE > SAFE > DROPPED 3rd STRIKE >
    What happen to runner that was at third (R3) OUT > HOME > FORCE OUT > CATCHER

    (NOTICE (added after original writing): a potential bug is discovered later in this thread (after multiple posts). it is discovered that that iPhone, ipad and Android behave differently, iPad does not ask for fielder involved in this play situation but iPhone and Android will. Additionally, technically Safe by Fielder's Choice but Safe FC is not offered in a D3S safe scenario in iscore)
Result
  • the Batter struck out, the pitcher gets credited for a strike out and the batter stats will reflect a Strike Out ( not a fielders choice, i will explain more at end, but easiest answer is there was no fair batted ball in play for a batting FC, but as a runner Advance to first FC (d3PB)). the Catcher however, did not catch the pitch and if not a wild pitch, would then be credited with a Passed ball ( he is not credited with a put out as he would be if he had caught the pitch on third strike). What the catcher does get credit for (in addition to the PB) is the unassisted put out on the runner from third
Stats will reflect .
  • Pitcher= Strike Out, Catcher = 1 Put out ( for R3 but NOT for Batter ) , Batter = strike out
Score Card will reflect
  • Batter at first on D3PB and R3 FO# between third and home (where # is the batter position in batting order)
    (Technically a scorebook could notate FC (instead of d3PB) for advance to first.. but iscore, as explained below, tried to be more descriptive and not double use FC in two contexts)
.....................................................................

note, on fielder's choice and its "dual context" definition .. a) as a batter and b) as a runner (iscore tracks batter FC but not Runner FC)

Fielder's Choice has two part definition (official definition below), its meaning is thus based on the context it is used in (in laymen terms.in batter context or in sbase runner context)....
  • the most common context is the first part of the definition (i.e., batter context) .. The part that we see that impacts batter stat, e.g. the case when batter is safe at first b/c fielder choose to make a play on another runner and batter is credited an official at bat but not a hit (nor a reach on error) (iscore tracks this batter context). the second part of the definition, (the less common 'runner' context), is when used technically by official scorekeepers by rule as a notation to account for a base runner advancing without aide of a ball in play, stolen base or error (iscore does not track this 'base runner' context and tends to be more descriptive for advancement, using on the throw, or d3s etc. ). In laymen terms, official scorekeeper would use FC when nothing else works for explaining the advancement of a batter, because by rule every base advancement needs a reason. This use of FC does not show up in any batter's stats or fielders official stats, it is just an official scorer notation.
Iscore developers appear to have made a conscious choice to try and only use FC on scorecard in the more common context that impacts stats to lessen any potential confusion.
  • the developers have the first part of the FC definition in the players batting stats (FC) and use FC notation on the scorecard in this context. For the second less common context, it would appear , developers wanted to avoid re use of FC and possible confusion and decided to try and be more descriptive on how a runner advances a base (e.g. by hit, error, stolen base, wild pitch, indifference) . In this D3S situation iscore opted to notate the outcome of batter reaching first with description D3PB.

    Technically I guess this situation falls under part 2 b of the definition of fielders choice - but it would not be a Batters fielders choice (definition part 1) (i know, sounds like confusing double speak - but when I step back and think about it - it seems to makes sense.)

For reference, Here is the official Definition from MLB. (color emphasis added to separate Part 1 and 2a,b,c of the definition )
MLB ORB Definition of Terms wrote:FIELDER’S CHOICE is the act of a fielder who handles a fair grounder and, instead of throwing to first base to put out the batter-runner, throws to another base in an attempt to put out a preceding runner. The term is also used by scorers (a) to account for the advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more extra bases when the fielder who handles his safe hit attempts to put out a preceding runner; (b) to account for the advance of a runner (other than by stolen base or error) while a fielder is attempting to put out another runner; and (c) to account for the advance of a runner made solely because of the defensive team’s indifference (undefended steal).
..........................................
iScore Baseball/Softball
* FAQ http://iscoresports.com//baseball/support.php
* Updated Manual http://iscoresports.com/baseball/manual.php?gd=1
* Stat Formulas http://data.iscorecentral.com/legend.ph ... internal=1
Tacho47
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Re: How to score?

Post by Tacho47 » Tue May 30, 2017 6:14 am

ISCORE ....Tap Buttons...
STRIKE > SAFE > DROPPED 3rd STRIKE >
What happen to runner that was at third (R3) OUT > HOME > FORCE OUT > CATCHER


a) Sorry, but IScore will NOT ask the last step to tap CATCHER!!! (Advanced Scorekeeper level & Minimize Questions YES).
b) The putout statistically is NOT recorded (to neither player!)
c) even though the catcher made the out, the PB still remains in his books, which in fact is wrong.

The "K" is correctly credited to the pitcher!
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OhioTex
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Re: How to score?

Post by OhioTex » Tue May 30, 2017 8:22 am

good discussion. I think A and B we can resolve.. and C may need escalating to support

a) I do not have android device with me to test, but on iphone version, i absolutely get the " tap each player that handled the ball .... " question.
  • Are you sure you had batter Safe at first? please verify. if so, and not asked, this will need to get flagged for support.
      • Would help if you try some other scenario when batter safe at first.. e.g In play > Safe > Passed ball, wild pitch, error, fielders choice.? Are you getting "What happen to R3? " question on any of these? if runner safe at first, each of these should prompt for Runner at home.
        (this should have nothing to do with game Options . Advance Scoring which is about errors, and minimize questions which is about what happen to batter-runner at first. ) example if you did safe by fielders choice.. .. , In Play > fielders Choice > touched catcher > then what happen to Runner r3? Out > force out.
        if so would not get prompted for who touched again.
    (update (added after original writing) after bug was discovered.. in this scenario (bases loaded, 2 outs, D3S, Safe, R3, ForceOut at home, ....) Iphone and Andorid will ask for fielder involved but iPad does not - hence confusion.
b) are you saying iscore not crediting PO, or are you saying by Rule Catcher should not be credited PO.?
  • if the first, When you do not have the question asked, you are correct, Iscore books will not show a put out, because it did not get told, I can see why your iscore books will not have a putout recorded if not being asked., But when asked iscore will record the put out consistent with MLB 9.12.f.2. when we resolve item a, item b should resolve itself.
C) This looks to be a miss in iScore. Will Need further investigation by support
  • Currently the iScore program (iOS and android) credits the catcher with a passed ball (or pitcher with a wild pitch) as soon as the play is entered for Safe on 3rd strike ( Safe > Dropped 3rd strike or Safe > wild pitch 3rd strike).. that is correct, if batter safe at first and no other outs made on the play, per MLB rule 9.13.(b) . BIUT if an out is made on same play before any runners advance (which unfortunately, the program does not yet know about), the program looks like it is wrongly crediting a Passed Balls (or wild pitch) per MLB Rule 9.13 comment . To be correct, the program would need to nullify passed ball (or wild pitch) if out is made before any runners advance (including any force out with 2outs).
So the current entry method credits an extra passed ball (or wild pitch) that you would need to manually reduce in post game. I can not come up with an alternative entry method, that removes the passed ball and credit pitcher and batter with strike out and catcher put out with less editing post game. .((e.g. in play > fielders Choice, would create need for post game addition of strike out to batter and pitcher.
(update (added after original writing) after some back and forth a bug was discovered.. and later posted as such .

After you respond on A & B , we can summarize for Support so they do not miss.

/ OhioTex

some rule References in support of above
MLB 9.12.f.2
When the catcher recovers the ball after a wild pitch or passed ball on the third strike, and throws out the batter- runner at first base, or tags out the batter-runner, but another runner or runners advance, the official scorer shall score the strikeout, the putout and assists, if any, and credit the advance of the other runner or runners on the play as a fielder’s choice.


9.13.(b)
The official scorer shall charge a catcher with a passed ball when the catcher fails to hold or to control a legally pitched ball that should have been held or controlled with ordinary effort, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance. When the third strike is a passed ball, permitting the batter to reach first base, the official scorer shall score a strikeout and a passed ball.

Rule 9.13 Comment:
The official scorer shall not charge a wild pitch or passed ball if the defensive team makes an out before any runners advance. For example, if a pitch touches the ground and eludes the catcher with a runner on first base, but the catcher recovers the ball and throws to second base in time to retire the runner, the official scorer shall not charge the pitcher with a wild pitch. The official scorer shall credit the advancement of any other runner on the play as a fielder’s choice. If a catcher drops a pitch, for example, with a runner on first base, but the catcher recovers the ball and throws to second base in time to retire the runner, the official scorer shall not charge the catcher with a passed ball. The official scorer shall credit the advancement of any other runner on the play as a fielder’s choice.
Last edited by OhioTex on Tue May 30, 2017 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
..........................................
iScore Baseball/Softball
* FAQ http://iscoresports.com//baseball/support.php
* Updated Manual http://iscoresports.com/baseball/manual.php?gd=1
* Stat Formulas http://data.iscorecentral.com/legend.ph ... internal=1
Tacho47
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Re: How to score?

Post by Tacho47 » Tue May 30, 2017 8:44 am

Ohio,

i use an IPhone and an IPad for all the scoring with iScore.

With Bases loaded, two out, two strikes on the batter the next pitch is a strike, dropped by the catcher.

A)
I do:
STRIKE > SAFE > DROPPED 3rd STRIKE > What happen to runner that was at third (R3) OUT > HOME > FORCE OUT
That's it. I'm not able to tap "CATCHER" you mentioned in your post (which might be the reason, why no putout is credited)

B) Doing scenario in A), IScore does NOT credit the PO!
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OhioTex
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Re: How to score?

Post by OhioTex » Tue May 30, 2017 8:54 am

glad you are on iOS that takes one variable out of the equation, (my bad , thought i recalled from an early post you using a galaxy device, i must have confused you with another. )
  • A and B are Linked. the fact you are not getting "Tap fielder screen" (item A) is a concern. B is a non issue, it will resolve itself when A is solved.

    i have done a dozen times on iPhone this morning and every time gotten the " tap fielder screen""

    i am going to try on some other devices (iPad and Android) . .

    If we can not figure out, why you are not getting the "tap fielder screen" i am going to suggest you 1) option export your data to update server and 2) email support with your customer ID and 3) describe the exact game situation on your device you are finding this not happen.
....... more trouble shooting questions ....

Are you on version 5.020 (though i recall this working in prior version) but i am using 5.020 this morning. on iPhone 5.
Are you doing this in Edit game mode or on main scoring screen? .
Can you create a test game and quickly load the bases, get a couple outs and see if happens on a new game. .?
..........................................
iScore Baseball/Softball
* FAQ http://iscoresports.com//baseball/support.php
* Updated Manual http://iscoresports.com/baseball/manual.php?gd=1
* Stat Formulas http://data.iscorecentral.com/legend.ph ... internal=1
Tacho47
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Re: How to score?

Post by Tacho47 » Tue May 30, 2017 9:49 am

OhioTex wrote: i have done a dozen times on iOS this morning and every time gotten the " tap fielder screen""
me too ;-)
OhioTex wrote: If we can not figure out, why you are not getting the "tap fielder screen" i am going to suggest you 1) option export your data to update server and 2) email support with your customer ID and 3) describe the exact game situation on your device you are finding this not happen.
I only get the "tap fielder screen", wenn the dropped third strike results in an OUT on the Batter!
OhioTex wrote: Are you on version 5.020 (though i recall this working in prior version) but i am using 5.020 this morning. on iPhone 5.
Sure I'am on 5.020 with both devices (IPhone 6 Plus and IPad 2)
OhioTex wrote: Are you doing this in Edit game mode or on main scoring screen?
Only been in main scoring screen so far!
OhioTex wrote: Can you create a test game and quickly load the bases, get a couple outs and see if happens on a new game. .?
I already did. Skipped the first two batters w/out (2 Outs) then loaded the bases with 3 intentional walks. Batter #6 then got three straight strikes
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OhioTex
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Re: How to score?

Post by OhioTex » Tue May 30, 2017 12:09 pm

(update: (added post original writing) turns out iphone and ipad are behaving differently, which was unknown before this and coausing troubleshooting confusion)


@ support . there are a couple things going on here, that will help if you can chime in ,
  • Primary issue - , Not getting the "Touch Each Position ...." Screen
    A1) From Main scoring screen, Tacho47, reports he is not getting the "Touch Each Position ...." Screen on a What happen to runner R3? on a Force out. (iOS version) (update edit, turns out this is was using an iPad version and iPad and iPhone behaved differently)[/i]

    A2) On same scenario, I do get the "Touch Each Position ...." Screen on Main scoring screen. but on Game Edit screen , I can not get the "Touch Each Position ...." Screen on a force out (update edit, turns out this was using an iPhone version, and iPad and iPhone behaved differently)

    Secondary concern - stats on Safe D3 Strike
    C) Passed ball being credited on a Safe > Drop 3 Strike when out is made and no one advanced. , @Tacho47 made a good case this should not credit a PB on catcher (or WP on pitcher)


@ tacho47 , I can not repeat this issue from the main scoring screen, but i can predictably repeat the issue from the Play by Play / Edit Game screen (maybe a clue to developers)
(using Phone 5s and iscore v5.020)

Tacho47 wrote:I already did. Skipped the first two batters w/out (2 Outs) then loaded the bases with 3 intentional walks. Batter #6 then got three straight strikes
  • I entered your exact same test scenario. (Misc Skip Batter w out, twice, and 3 intentional walks, then strike strike strike ) and still got "Touch Each Position ...." Screen.
    (no different then how i had gotten to bases loaded 2 outs. (hit hit hit, strike out looking , strike out swinging)
    • R1,R2,R3 2 outs, .. Strike, Strike , Strike.....
      Strike > Safe > Drop 3rd Strike >
      "What happen to R3?" Out > Home > Force Out >
      "Touch Each Position That ... .... " Catcher > Done

  • EDIT mode
    • when i edit the play from game Info: play by play / game editor, Runner X Out > Home > Force Out , I do not get the "Touch Each Position ...." Screen.
      but If i choose Caught Stealing, Picked Off, or Tagged Out, I do get the "Touch Each Position ...." Screen- perhaps that is a clue to developer


@ tacho47
  • What variations can you do that to get a "Touch Each Position ...." Screen for What happen to Runner R3?"
    example - same situation ( R1,R2,R3 2 outs, ) but try tag out.. i.e. In Play > Safe > D3S > What happen to R3? Out > Tag Out . > did you get the "Touch Each Position..." screen?.
    or same situation ( R1,R2,R3 2 outs, ) but try a HIT (i know non sensical) .. but try In Play > Safe > Single ( instead of D3S) , What happen to R3? Out > Force Out .. did you get "Touch Each Position..." screen?.
Last edited by OhioTex on Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
..........................................
iScore Baseball/Softball
* FAQ http://iscoresports.com//baseball/support.php
* Updated Manual http://iscoresports.com/baseball/manual.php?gd=1
* Stat Formulas http://data.iscorecentral.com/legend.ph ... internal=1
Tacho47
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Re: How to score?

Post by Tacho47 » Tue May 30, 2017 1:30 pm

OhioTex wrote:
@ tacho47
  • What variations can you do that to get a "Touch Each Position ...." Screen for What happen to Runner R3?"
    example - same situation ( R1,R2,R3 2 outs, ) but try tag out.. i.e. In Play > Safe > D3S > What happen to R3? Out > Tag Out . > did you get the "Touch Each Position..." screen?.
On a "Tag Out" I DO get the "Touch Each Position" screen!
OhioTex wrote: or same situation ( R1,R2,R3 2 outs, ) but try a HIT (i know non sensical) .. but try In Play > Safe > Single ( instead of D3S) , What happen to R3? Out > Force Out .. did you get "Touch Each Position..." screen?. [/list]
No, a "Hit" won't change things, because everything ends with the "force out" button!
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OhioTex
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Re: How to score?

Post by OhioTex » Tue May 30, 2017 1:40 pm

(update: (added post original writing) turns out iphone and ipad are behaving differently, which was unknown before this and coausing troubleshooting confusion)

So you are doing the exact same thing on FORCE OUT as TAG OUT and one gets you the " Touch Each Positions that ..." .screen and one not..

Try for ERROR CAUGHT STEALING , PICKED OFF .. all 5 should give the " Touch Each Positions that ..." .screen

(forget the nonsensical ness of the choice, aka picked off, , i am trying to see which work and which do not, to try and help understand why)
..........................................
iScore Baseball/Softball
* FAQ http://iscoresports.com//baseball/support.php
* Updated Manual http://iscoresports.com/baseball/manual.php?gd=1
* Stat Formulas http://data.iscorecentral.com/legend.ph ... internal=1
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