How would this be scored? Runners on first and second, one out. Batter hits to CF, runner on second holds expecting catch, ball drops short of CF batter makes it to 1B, runner on first goes to 2B, runner on second attempts to make it to 3B but is thrown out by CF.
Thanks
FC or basehit?
Re: FC or basehit?
scorers judgement of course if a fielders choice or hit single with an 8-5 Force out.
Sorry, Most likely this is one you have to see in person to judge based on your situation (past scoring tendencies, league play level and placement of ball, speed of runners etc. .)
Sorry, Most likely this is one you have to see in person to judge based on your situation (past scoring tendencies, league play level and placement of ball, speed of runners etc. .)
Re: FC or basehit?
There is no judgment on the play, its a fielders choice. No single.
Re: FC or basehit?
...my bad...
i did not think it was an automatic "by rule decsion" b/c the ball was hit to the outfield ... my instinct and practice had been to use scorers judgement in those situations ... b/c i thought i had seen it done both ways on TV .. with the key test being, was there a reasonable chance to get the out at first? if so, fielders choice - if not a hit. given greenwoods post, I took a few minutes to refresh myself on the rules i think govern the situation and thought i would share. I found some interesting difference in 'language' between baseball and softball.
MLB and Little League rules make it black and white "No hit" when infielders make the put out, 10.06 (b) (3) but in their specificity on fielders, they leave the door open for when outfielders make the put out, is it automatic or judgement call.??. ( perhaps the baseball case book clarifies it officially, but I did not have time to research). On the other hand in softball (ASA (3) (b) ) it looks like it is by rule a FC anytime a put out made on a proceeding runner and the batter runner reaches first.
Hope that helps... at a mimimum I re learned something
[blockquote]
source: 10.06 MLB and Little League
(b) The official scorer shall not credit a base hit when a:
(1) runner is forced out by a batted ball, or would have been forced out except for a fielding error;
(2) batter apparently hits safely and a runner who is forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner fails to touch the first base to which such runner is advancing and is called out on appeal. The official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat but no hit;
(3) pitcher, the catcher or any infielder handles a batted ball and puts out a preceding runner who is attempting to advance one base or to return to his original base, or would have put out such runner with ordinary effort except for a fielding error. The official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat but no hit;
(4) fielder fails in an attempt to put out a preceding runner and, in the scorer's judgment, the batter-runner could have been put out at first base; or
Rule 10.05(b) Comment: Rule 10.05(b) shall not apply if the fielder merely looks toward or feints toward another base before attempting to make the putout at first base.
(5) runner is called out for interference with a fielder attempting to field a batted ball, unless in the scorer's judgment the batter-runner would have been safe had the interference not occurred.
source: ASA Softball (basically same for NCAA and NHFS)
[left]Section 3. A BASE HIT shall not be scored:[/left] [left]A. When a runner is forced out on a batted ball or would have been forced out[/left] [left]except for a fielding error.[/left] [left]B. When a player fielding a batted ball retires a preceding runner with ordinary[/left] [left]effort.[/left] [left]C. When a fielder fails in an attempt to retire a preceding runner and, in the[/left] [left]scorer’s judgment, the batter-runner could have been retired at first base.[/left] [left]D. When a batter reaches first base safely as a result of a preceding runner being[/left]called out for interfering with a batted or thrown ball, or with a defensive
player.[/blockquote]
i did not think it was an automatic "by rule decsion" b/c the ball was hit to the outfield ... my instinct and practice had been to use scorers judgement in those situations ... b/c i thought i had seen it done both ways on TV .. with the key test being, was there a reasonable chance to get the out at first? if so, fielders choice - if not a hit. given greenwoods post, I took a few minutes to refresh myself on the rules i think govern the situation and thought i would share. I found some interesting difference in 'language' between baseball and softball.
MLB and Little League rules make it black and white "No hit" when infielders make the put out, 10.06 (b) (3) but in their specificity on fielders, they leave the door open for when outfielders make the put out, is it automatic or judgement call.??. ( perhaps the baseball case book clarifies it officially, but I did not have time to research). On the other hand in softball (ASA (3) (b) ) it looks like it is by rule a FC anytime a put out made on a proceeding runner and the batter runner reaches first.
Hope that helps... at a mimimum I re learned something
[blockquote]
source: 10.06 MLB and Little League
(b) The official scorer shall not credit a base hit when a:
(1) runner is forced out by a batted ball, or would have been forced out except for a fielding error;
(2) batter apparently hits safely and a runner who is forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner fails to touch the first base to which such runner is advancing and is called out on appeal. The official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat but no hit;
(3) pitcher, the catcher or any infielder handles a batted ball and puts out a preceding runner who is attempting to advance one base or to return to his original base, or would have put out such runner with ordinary effort except for a fielding error. The official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat but no hit;
(4) fielder fails in an attempt to put out a preceding runner and, in the scorer's judgment, the batter-runner could have been put out at first base; or
Rule 10.05(b) Comment: Rule 10.05(b) shall not apply if the fielder merely looks toward or feints toward another base before attempting to make the putout at first base.
(5) runner is called out for interference with a fielder attempting to field a batted ball, unless in the scorer's judgment the batter-runner would have been safe had the interference not occurred.
source: ASA Softball (basically same for NCAA and NHFS)
[left]Section 3. A BASE HIT shall not be scored:[/left] [left]A. When a runner is forced out on a batted ball or would have been forced out[/left] [left]except for a fielding error.[/left] [left]B. When a player fielding a batted ball retires a preceding runner with ordinary[/left] [left]effort.[/left] [left]C. When a fielder fails in an attempt to retire a preceding runner and, in the[/left] [left]scorer’s judgment, the batter-runner could have been retired at first base.[/left] [left]D. When a batter reaches first base safely as a result of a preceding runner being[/left]called out for interfering with a batted or thrown ball, or with a defensive
player.[/blockquote]
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FTMSupport
- Site Admin
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Re: FC or basehit?
Seems odd that a base hit can be taken away because of poor baserunning by other runners. If nobody was on base, sounds like it was clearly a base hit.
I would not be happy if I was the batter in that situation and had my batting average penalized for a clean base hit.
I would not be happy if I was the batter in that situation and had my batting average penalized for a clean base hit.
Re: FC or basehit?
If the expectation was that the CF was to catch the ball, which is why the runner on second held to tag, then wouldn't this score as E8, throw out 8-5? Since I didn't see the play, was the ball catchable?
JMO
Dan
JMO
Dan
Re: FC or basehit?
I like Dan's comment on "error " that would make a difference.
But I also want to clarify my initial assertion that scorer had judgement is wrong - i had a brain freeze. greenwood is right. there is no scorer judgement on the scenario if it is deemed to be error free. the cold reality, If a batter hits into a force out for any runner, he should not technically get a base hit if following official rules of MLB NCAA ASA Little League...
But I also want to clarify my initial assertion that scorer had judgement is wrong - i had a brain freeze. greenwood is right. there is no scorer judgement on the scenario if it is deemed to be error free. the cold reality, If a batter hits into a force out for any runner, he should not technically get a base hit if following official rules of MLB NCAA ASA Little League...
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IntentionalWalk
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:44 pm
Re: FC or basehit?
Agree that this should be scored as a Fielder's Choice. I teach scorekeeping in my Little League and this question comes up every year. I agree with FTMSupport that it's very regrettable as a batter to get a base hit taken away, but unfortunately, that's the scoring rule ... it's black and white that forceouts of this type are fielder's choices.
--IntentionalWalk
--IntentionalWalk