Scoring error on pick off

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AJWALKMAN
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Scoring error on pick off

Post by AJWALKMAN » Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:20 pm

In a game the catcher threw to 3rd base trying to pick off a base runner. The 3rd baseman missed the ball, left field backed up and threw to home for the tag out. I can see how to touch the base runner and list as a 7-2, how do I record the full event... 2-5 PO, E5, then 7-2 for the out?


Thanks
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FTMSupport
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Re: Scoring error on pick off

Post by FTMSupport » Mon Sep 10, 2012 7:52 pm

If the runner was thrown out at home, then no error is recorded. All you enter is the 7-2 out. You can put a note about what took place on the play to cause it to happen, but statistically there is no error involved.

You can read more about this at:

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/of ... rer_10.jsp

Look in section "10.12 Errors" - specifically:

"(a) The official scorer shall charge an error against any fielder:
(1) whose misplay (fumble, muff or wild throw) prolongs the time at bat of a batter, prolongs the presence on the bases of a runner or permits a runner to advance one or more bases, unless, in the judgment of the official scorer, such fielder deliberately permits a foul fly to fall safe with a runner on third base before two are out in order that the runner on third shall not score after the catch;"

This play did not result in prolonging the runner's time on base, or allow the runner to advance a base. The left fielder saved the third baseman from an error.
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Egghead_#8
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Re: Scoring error on pick off

Post by Egghead_#8 » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:34 am

I think I'd actually put it in as a 2-7-2 to make it more obvious after the fact what occurred. While this probably would give an assist to the Catcher when one really isn't deserved, it does better describe the play (w/o reading the notes) since the catcher was involved in the play.
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FTMSupport
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Re: Scoring error on pick off

Post by FTMSupport » Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:14 am

You are probably right about 2-7-2, and the catcher actually probably should be credited with an assist even if it was unintentional.
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oconnor.jb
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Re: Scoring error on pick off

Post by oconnor.jb » Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:57 pm

The extra assist at the beginning of that play is one of those "phantom" assists that I think should get counted in defensive stats, but doesn't. The catcher did his job and made a good throw, so shouldn't lose credit for it just because the 3B didn't catch it.

Another example: the left fielder can get 15 base hits hit to him/her, cleanly field them, and make an accurate throw back in to an infielder and the play is over, and gets no "good credit" to defensive stats. Then, have two pop flies hit his/her way, catch 1 and drop 1 and have a .500 fielding %. It's as if those other 15 "good" defensive handles didn't exist. Outfielders can do a lot of good defensive work that they never really get credit for. Catchers get PO's for correctly handling all the pitches needed to achieve a strikeout, shouldn't OF's at least get assists for all the clean stops they make?

I know my opinion isn't going to change anything. Just thought I'd vent.
AE32170C18
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Re: Scoring error on pick off

Post by AE32170C18 » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:39 am

oconnor.jb wrote:The extra assist at the beginning of that play is one of those "phantom" assists that I think should get counted in defensive stats, but doesn't. The catcher did his job and made a good throw, so shouldn't lose credit for it just because the 3B didn't catch it.

Another example: the left fielder can get 15 base hits hit to him/her, cleanly field them, and make an accurate throw back in to an infielder and the play is over, and gets no "good credit" to defensive stats. Then, have two pop flies hit his/her way, catch 1 and drop 1 and have a .500 fielding %. It's as if those other 15 "good" defensive handles didn't exist. Outfielders can do a lot of good defensive work that they never really get credit for. Catchers get PO's for correctly handling all the pitches needed to achieve a strikeout, shouldn't OF's at least get assists for all the clean stops they make?

I know my opinion isn't going to change anything. Just thought I'd vent.
Good point!
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OhioTex
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Re: Scoring error on pick off

Post by OhioTex » Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:35 am

oconnor.jb wrote: ....
Another example: the left fielder can get 15 base hits hit to him/her, cleanly field them, and make an accurate throw back in to an infielder and the play is over, and gets no "good credit" to defensive stats. Then, have two pop flies hit his/her way, catch 1 and drop 1 and have a .500 fielding %. It's as if those other 15 "good" defensive handles didn't exist. Outfielders can do a lot of good defensive work that they never really get credit for.
....

I like the point also. Traditional defensive stats (for infield or outfield) do not track total opportunity very completely.
Townsse
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Re: Scoring error on pick off

Post by Townsse » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:30 pm

How do you record a pick off attempt of a runner on first and he advance on a bad pick off throw to first or a dropped ball by first? When I enter it as a pick off attempt iScore does not give me any more option on that play. I'm I missing something?
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FTMSupport
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Re: Scoring error on pick off

Post by FTMSupport » Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:15 pm

Tap the runner, then tap Safe, Second, Error, and tap who made the error (pitcher for bad throw, 1B for dropped ball).
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grstatdoc
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Re: Scoring error on pick off

Post by grstatdoc » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:02 pm

oconnor.jb wrote:The extra assist at the beginning of that play is one of those "phantom" assists that I think should get counted in defensive stats, but doesn't. The catcher did his job and made a good throw, so shouldn't lose credit for it just because the 3B didn't catch it.

Another example: the left fielder can get 15 base hits hit to him/her, cleanly field them, and make an accurate throw back in to an infielder and the play is over, and gets no "good credit" to defensive stats. Then, have two pop flies hit his/her way, catch 1 and drop 1 and have a .500 fielding %. It's as if those other 15 "good" defensive handles didn't exist. Outfielders can do a lot of good defensive work that they never really get credit for. Catchers get PO's for correctly handling all the pitches needed to achieve a strikeout, shouldn't OF's at least get assists for all the clean stops they make?

I know my opinion isn't going to change anything. Just thought I'd vent.
The problem wasn't with the catcher's good throw ... it was the misplay by the third baseman that "negated" the assist (i.e. the failure of the 3B to catch the throw allowed the runner to try to advance, but the LF saved everybody's bacon by nailing the runner), and the LF's throw is really a new play.
Do note that the rules on crediting assists require that a throw results in a putout (except for a subsequent error). MLB 10.10(a)(1) and (2)
(a) The official scorer shall credit an assist to each fielder who:
  • (1) throws or deflects a batted or thrown ball in such a way that a putout results,
    or would have resulted except for a subsequent error by any fielder. Only one
    assist and no more shall be credited to each fielder who throws or deflects the
    ball in a run-down play that results in a putout, or would have resulted in a
    putout, except for a subsequent error; or
  • (2) throws or deflects the ball during a play that results in a runner being called
    out for interference or for running out of line.
(College baseball and softball follow along the same lines) I do sympathize with the vent, but the assist wasn't designed to handle accurate throws by an outfielder unless a putout results.
I suppose that between spray charts and noting which outfielder played the ball, a rough picture can be approximated of how well an outfielder handles such things. But since only putouts, assists and errors go into fielding percentage, making an accurate throw after fielding a hit in the outfield is not directly rewarded.
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