Forced outs

[MalloryCaldwell]

I don't really understand how to score forced outs.

Situation. Runner on first. Batter hits grounder to short stop who throws to second baseman for the out. Batter reaches first.

I hit in play, hit single, (what happened to runner) out at 2nd forced out.

When I do this, it never lets me show players involved in out (Ss-2b). Is that right?

Thanks.

[FTMSupport]

It is not a single in that case, it is a Fielders Choice. You should enter:

In Play
Fielder's Choice
(touch location of ball)
SS-2B
Asks what happened to runner, Out, Second, Force Out

[MalloryCaldwell]

Thanks for your reply. I think in my live situations, they probably were fielder choice -- there was a possibility of throwing out at first

But I think that using fielders choice would make the BATTER not be credited with a HIT. Is hat right?

In little league, there are so many errors (gosh, on every play it seems) that I really have been trying to keep batting statistics purely on the basis of whether the boy got on base or not.

Am I right abut the use of fielders choice on batting statistics?

Ok ... One more related question .... When do you use forced out -- and why then would you still not want to record the players involved in the out?

Thanks again for our help, everyone!

M

[SteelCityB]

You are correct about the effect of a fielder's choice on batting average (BA); however, just making it to a base is not always a hit regardless of the age level. You should score the games consistently and within the rules. If the coach is really interested, he (or she ) can use OBP or another stat if the batting averages seem low.

These will negatively affect BA (0 for 1):

1) The situation that you described is a fielder's choice. The batter is now 0 for 1 (gets credit for an at-bat, but not a hit). Even though they made it to 1st, they still caused an out.
2) A player reaches on an error. This also counts as an at-bat, but not a hit (it will show in the stats as ROE, though). The reasoning is that the player would have been out if the error had not occurred.

These have no affect on BA (0 for 0)

1) A walk
2) A sacrifice
3) Hit-by-pitch

[mprusak]

Thanks for your reply. I think in my live situations, they probably were fielder choice -- there was a possibility of throwing out at first

One point of clarification here, if scoring by the letter of the law, possibility of being thrown out need not be considered. Fielder's Choice can be rather cruel. If a runner is forced out on the play, even if they would have had no play on the batter if no runners were on base, its a FC and no hit awarded. A couple examples:

Runner on first, solid line to center field, center fielder fields on one hop and throws to second to force out runner.
Runners on first/second, ground ball deep in hole between short and third, diving stop by SS No chance to throw out batter, but because he was diving towards third he is able to throw to third for force out.

Ok ... One more related question .... When do you use forced out -- and why then would you still not want to record the players involved in the out?

Forced out is used to explain how a runner was put out (not a batter), so you have already entered the fielders involved when you indicated what happened to the batter. (See FTM's response to your question as an example).

[CSThunderCoach]

There is a slight difference between baseball and softball. In softball (presumably due to the shorter bases) the possibility of being able to throw out the runner at first is a consideration:

14.2.10 Fielder’s Choice: Charge a batter-runner with a fielder’s choice when a defender fields a ground ball and attempts to put out a preceding base runner rather than the batter-runner at first when a throw to first base would have put out the batter-runner. Advance a runner by a fielder’s choice when she advances safely while another runner is played on.

Forcing out the lead runner does not always result in FC against batter-runner in the cases above. Line drive to center will 99% result in a basehit. It gets tricky when you have a good lefty slapper. Would the slap have resulted in a hit even if the lead runner was not forced out at another base?

[MalloryCaldwell]

I love this forum. For what it is worth, the Fielder's Choice Wiki says that in MLB it is scorer's judgment whether the runner at first could have been thrown out or not. (At least that is how I read the Wiki entry . . . I am no expert here).

[mprusak]

MLB rules would definitely be a FC. I cant speak to softball rules, so not sure on that, however I found an older thread from this forum that provides good references, that would suggest it would be a FC in softball as well (again, I'm not arguing it is or isn't and I'm sure rules vary):

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3949" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Rosborn]

I think the way the rule is applied exactly what it's called a "FIELDERS CHOICE" meaning exactly that, the fielder had a choice of which runner they wanted to throw out and of course will always take the lead runner.. I've read several (mostly clarified under notes) where it clearly says if an outfielder is coming in hard and dives for a ball, catches on a short bounce and throws out the runner tagging and going to second because he was waiting to see if it were caught, it is not a FC, that fielder had NO Choice of which player to throw out and in fact had absolutely no chance of throwing out the batter/base runner, so it recorded as a hit.
It's like the rule states you give the batter a SAC bunt, even if there is an error committed on the play. You don't charge batter with an AB, no on base via an error, even when there4 is an error; it's still recorded as an SAC

[MalloryCaldwell]

There is plenty of attention on this one. So I want to re-state my original question: Is there any way in iscore (other than fielder's choice) to record a "forced out" AND record the players involved in the play. I think in manual score books a fairly common notation might be "FO6-4."