Fielders Choice or Hit (responded)

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Rix
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Fielders Choice or Hit (responded)

Post by Rix » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:18 pm

Hello all,

I already know the answer, but I wanted to have an easy to link post so that I can send it to one of the parents of our 12U girls softball team. He's not angry, I just wanted to show him how this one doesn't make sense and unfortunately, the rules are pretty clear on this one.

Situation
Girl on 1st base
Batter hits perfect line drive to center field
Fielder has NO SHOT at making the out at 1st
Runner on 1st delays because it was close to being caught
Late run to 2nd makes an easy out for outfielder to 2nd base for the force

Scored
I scored it as a Fielders Choice, force at 2nd.

Can someone share the rules for this one (ASA is very stingy about sharing their rulebooks!)?

Thanks,
Rix
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Re: Fielders Choice or Hit

Post by Rix » Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:36 pm

OK...I should have looked a little better before posting this. Here's a link to the original post I had found before:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3752" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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OhioTex
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Re: Fielders Choice or Hit

Post by OhioTex » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:20 am

since you reposted, sounds like some on going disbelief. If you want to follow standard conventions, then as previous;y posted -- no base hit would be credited in the situation when a proceeding runner is forced out (nor otherwise out, if ordinary fielding effort for that matter). yes proceeding base runner actions can hurt a batter).

Here are some detailed softball scoring guideline citations in support
from ASA, ISF, NFHS (softball), NCAA (softball), and MLB (for reference)

ASA, (emphasis added)
ASA Rule Book wrote: Rule 11 Scoring
...
Section 3. A BASE HIT shall not be scored:
A. When a runner is forced out on a batted ball or would have been forced out except for a fielding error.
B. When a player fielding a batted ball retires a preceding runner with ordinary effort.
C. When a fielder fails in an attempt to retire a preceding runner and, in the scorer’s judgment, the batter-runner could have been retired at first base.
D. When a batter reaches first base safely as a result of a preceding runner being called out for interfering with a batted or thrown ball, or with adefensive player.
Here is International Softball Federation (exact same as ASA)
(emphasis added)
ISF Rule Book wrote: RULE 12. SCORING.
...
Sec. 3. BASE HITS SHALL NOT BE RECORDED.
A base hit shall not be scored in the following cases.
a. When a runner is forced out by a batted ball, or would have been forced out, except for a fielding error.
b. When a player fielding a batted ball retires a preceding runner with ordinary effort.

c. When a fielder fails in an attempt to retire a preceding runner and, in the scorer's judgment, the batter-runner
could have been retired at first base. d. When a batter-runner reaches first base safely, as a result of a preceding runner being called out for interfering with a batted ball, or a defensive player.
EXCEPTION: If, in the judgment of the scorer, the batter would have reached first base safely had the interference not occurred, a safe hit shall be credited to the batter.

NFHS (softball)..
(although the code structure is different than ASA & ISF it gets to the same place )
( emphasis added)
NFHS (Softball) Rule Book wrote: Rule 9 Scoring and Record Keeping
...
SECTION 3 PLAYER’S BATTING RECORD
...
ART. 2 . . . A base hit is credited to a batter when the batter-runner advances
to first base safely:
a. because of a fair hit, rather than because of a fielder’s error. It is not a base
hit if any runner is out on a force play caused by the batter advancing
toward first base.

NOTE: Base hits include any fair hit which cannot be fielded in time to throw out or tag out a batter-runner or any other runner when being forced to advance. Illustrations are as follows: (1) Ball is stopped or checked by a fielder in motion who cannot recover in time. (2) Ball moves too slowly; (3) Ball is hit with such force to a fielder that neither the field- er nor an assisting fielder can handle it.
b. without liability of being put out because a runner is declared out for being
hit by the batted ball (8-1-2a), or the umpire is hit by a batted ball (5-1-1f).
c. because of a fielder’s choice when a fielder attempts to put out another runner but is unsuccessful and the scorekeeper believes the batter-runner would have reached first base even with perfect fielding.
NOTE: Scorekeepers use the term in the following ways: (1 ) to indicate the advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more bases when the fielder who handles the batted ball plays on a preceding runner; (2) to indicate the advance of a runner, other than by stolen base (F.P.) or error, while a fielder is trying to putout another runner; and (3) to indicate the advance of a runner due to the defensive team’s refusal to play on the runner (F.P., an undefended steal).
NCAA (softball) ...(emphasis added)
NCAA (softball) Rule Book wrote: RULE 14 Scoring
...
14.4 Base Hit Not Credited
A hit is not credited to the batter in the following situations:

14.4.1 When a batter advances one or more bases while a fielder who handles a fair hit attempts to put out a preceding runner.
14.4.2 When a batter misses first base and is then called out on an appeal.
14.4.3 When a batter hits safely and a preceding runner misses the first base to which she was forced to advance. This is an appealed force out, and the batter is credited with a fielder’s choice.
14.4.4 When a runner is called out for being touched by an infield fly ball.
[b]14.4.5 When a runner is forced out on a batted ball or would have been forced out except for a fielding error.[/b]
14.4.6 When a fielder fails in an attempt to retire a preceding runner and, in the official scorer’s judgment, the batter-runner could have been retired at first base.
14.4.7 When the base runner interferes with a batted ball and the official scorer judges that the batter would have been put out but for the interference. In this case, the batter is credited with a fielder’s choice.
MLB, the granddaddy of them all for reference, (available online at mlb.com),
(emphasis added)
MLB Official Rules: wrote: 10.00 The Official Scorer
...
10.05 Base Hits
A base hit is a statistic credited to a batter when such batter reaches base safely, as set forth in this Rule 10.05.
...
(b) The official scorer shall not credit a base hit when a:

(1) runner is forced out by a batted ball, or would have been forced out except for a fielding error;
(2) batter apparently hits safely and a runner who is forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner fails to touch the first base to which such runner is advancing and is called out on appeal. The official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat but no hit;
(3) pitcher, the catcher or any infielder handles a batted ball and puts out a preceding runner who is attempting to advance one base or to return to his original base, would have put out such runner with ordinary effort except for a fielding error. The official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat but no hit;
(4) fielder fails in an attempt to put out a preceding runner and, in the scorer's judgment, the batter-runner could have been put out at first base; or
Rule 10.05(b) Comment: Rule 10.05(b) shall not apply if the fielder merely looks toward or feints toward another base before attempting to make the putout at first base.
(5) runner is called out for interference with a fielder attempting to field a batted ball, unless in the scorer's judgment the batter-runner would have been safe had the interference not occurred.
webshowpro
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Re: Fielders Choice or Hit

Post by webshowpro » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:07 am

It would be a hit in the MLB.

MLB according to:

(3) pitcher, the catcher or any infielder handles a batted ball and puts out a preceding runner who is attempting to advance one base or to return to his original base, would have put out such runner with ordinary effort except for a fielding error. The official scorer shall charge the batter with a time at bat but no hit;

MLB goes on to clarify (1) and expand on (3) by distinguishing between infielders and outfielders. In (3) it explicitly states infielders, and goes on to re-enforce that the scorer has the judgement call of whether the hitter could be thrown out be ordinary effort.

SO according to MLB rules the batter would get awarded a hit if its to the outfield and the lead runner is forced out... IF the outfielder (in the scorers judgement) could not have made a play at first base.
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OhioTex
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Re: Fielders Choice or Hit

Post by OhioTex » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:36 am

I do not believe that is correct in MLB in this situation. -- MLB would still not credit as a hit since the runner from first was force out at second.

I understand the ambiguity introduced with 10.05.b.3, but it does not supersede (nor contradict on force outs) 10.05.b.1 . Hence i think iScore has it right.

(I am not a certified MLB scorer, but have had minor league scorers validate the force out rule for me in the past. We have also discussed this in prior thread in this forum with folks who do score MLB games, they are more than welcome to weigh in)

MLB 10.05.b (The official scorer shall not credit a base hit when ...)
(1) runner is forced out by a batted ball, or would have been forced out except for a fielding error;
...
(3) pitcher, the catcher or any infielder handles a batted ball and puts out a preceding runner who is attempting to advance one base or to return to his original base, would have put out such runner with ordinary effort except for a fielding error. ...


If you have more information, case book examples or other, please provide so we can clear up if in error, do not want to be giving bad or misleading advice.
webshowpro
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Re: Fielders Choice or Hit

Post by webshowpro » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:18 am

Thanks, I'll research it further.
webshowpro
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Re: Fielders Choice or Hit

Post by webshowpro » Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:33 pm

My bad. My interpretation is wrong. Hope did not cause any confusion.

I checked with a friend who is in the Tiger's front office. He verified this with their official scorer who reaffirmed the consensus that in the hypothetical situation outlined above, it would indeed be scored a fielder's choice - Even if the batter would have been safe if the bases were empty.
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OhioTex
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Re: Fielders Choice or Hit

Post by OhioTex » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:53 am

thanks for the follow up.

I think the scoring of the force out play is clear, FC.

But I am less clear on a situation when an outfielder gets a ball in quickly to get a proceeding runner out, on a non force play , and still a FC, not a hit. ( my guess the outfielder would be the assist and the infielder the put out, so 10/05.b.3 would be in effect. and not a hit, but that feels odd as it feels more like a base runner miscue..)
PetroGuy
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Re: Fielders Choice or Hit

Post by PetroGuy » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:01 am

OhioTex wrote:But I am less clear on a situation when an outfielder gets a ball in quickly to get a proceeding runner out, on a non force play , and still a FC, not a hit. ( my guess the outfielder would be the assist and the infielder the put out, so 10/05.b.3 would be in effect. and not a hit, but that feels odd as it feels more like a base runner miscue..)
I think it would be a hit in this situation if I am following your example correctly. From the way you describe it, the infielder is handling a thrown ball. The outfielder is handling the batted ball. I don't think 10.05.b(3) applies.
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OhioTex
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Re: Fielders Choice or Hit

Post by OhioTex » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:27 am

thanks petro guy. (as usual)

that makes sense to me !!!

, i was skipping over the "batted ball" part of 10.05.b.3 and hung up on the infielder put out part.

so in the end, common sense prevails on 10..05.b.3 it is just saying, that week infield balls (including bunts) that don't get through to outfield, and result in an unforced out should not be considered a base hit either.. makes sense.
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