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difference between stolen base and defensive indifference
Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 2:04 pm
by boracay
What's the diff? I usually just use the rule that if the catcher makes a throw then it's a SB but if not it's DI. Thanks.
Re: difference between stolen base and defensive indifference
Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 10:04 am
by OhioTex
the common one i see and is specifically described in rules. If the defense has a strategic reason not to throw down (ie runners at corners,) it is a stolen base..not defensive indifference
MLB 10.07.
(g) The official scorer shall not score a stolen base when a runner advances solely because of the defensive team's indifference to the runners advance. The official scorer shall score such a play as a fielder's choice.
Rule 10.07(g) Comment: The scorer shall consider, in judging whether the defensive team has been indifferent to a runners advance, the totality of the circumstances, including the inning and score of the game, whether the defensive team had held the runner on base, whether the pitcher had made any pickoff attempts on that runner before the runners advance, whether the fielder ordinarily expected to cover the base to which the runner advanced made a move to cover such base, whether the defensive team had a legitimate strategic motive to not contest the runners advance or whether the defensive team might be trying impermissibly to deny the runner credit for a stolen base. For example, with runners on first and third bases, the official scorer should ordinarily credit a stolen base when the runner on first advances to second, if, in the scorers judgment, the defensive team had a legitimate strategic motivenamely, preventing the runner on third base from scoring on the throw to second basenot to contest the runners advance to second base. The official scorer may conclude that the defensive team is impermissibly trying to deny a runner credit for a stolen base if, for example, the defensive team fails to defend the advance of a runner approaching a league or career record or a league statistical title.
Re: difference between stolen base and defensive indifference
Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 10:22 am
by team mom
Defensive indifference is rare. If the score is so lopsided that no throw is made, DI is the correct score. I would not assume that just because the throw was not made, DI is correct. Usually there are other reasons for no throw (mental lapse, runner on third, catcher fumbled the catch, good leadoff by runner, SS not covering, etc, etc.)
Re: difference between stolen base and defensive indifference
Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 9:49 pm
by Rix
Wow....that's why I like coming to this site. I learn something quite often.
I've been scoring this wrong then. Because I always gave a DI when the defense would not make the play to take out the runner going to 2nd with a runner at third. In softball, because of the short base distances, it's not uncommon at all to give the runner on 1st, 2nd base with a runner at 3rd. This is done to not allow the runner at 3rd to score.
I always felt it was unfair to the runner on 1st because they usually would get a good SB if there was no runner at 3rd.
I will now take a closer look at the situation and score it accordingly. Seems like there is more room for subjectivity in this play though.
Any others out there scoring this differently or have some suggestions on how you do it?
Re: difference between stolen base and defensive indifference
Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 4:42 am
by team mom
The other option that may apply here is FC, but I think the rule below implies this is a steal. There was no attempt at 2nd because the offense wanted to keep the runner on 3rd from going home.
g - Do not credit a stolen base to a runner who advances because of
defensive indifference; score a fielder's choice. (See noted exception
for first and third situation above). -NFCA Homeplate: ATEC: Beyond The Basics of Scoring Fastpitch Softball
The noted exception referred to is a double steal situation.
3) In the first and third double steal, credit the runner
advancing to second base with a stolen base if no throw
is made (unless indifference because of a lopsided
score was the cause of no defensive action), even if the
advance was made immediately after rounding on a
walk,
Re: difference between stolen base and defensive indifference
Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 6:03 am
by OhioTex
One of my favorite points team mom usually says about hit vs errors is 'be consistent And do what fits your age and level' .. What is a hit or error evolves from youth up.. Perhaps too could the use of DI and SB....
If you want to be ultra strict in your scoring, as we both pointed out it would be SB,
If you want to meet 'Major lague' standards, DI would be very very rare. But you are not PRO. If you want to use the DI button in youth and know that it is used in your world for those situations, walking steals, and you want your SB stat to be more reflective of 'traditional SB'. You can do that for yourself and just know that is your variation to technically correct standard.. I think that would be appropriate, only issue would be if compiling or comparing in a group who has a different understanding.
I bring this up, because I too score fast pitch u14 often. And I am thinking this summer, I really care more about the effort based caught stealing and made stealing than the 'walking steals' because a runner at third.. Inflating SB with walking steals does not help me evaluate catcher quality or base running quality...
My 2 cents
Re: difference between stolen base and defensive indifference
Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 6:13 am
by team mom
Very good point. I don't get a lot of input from the coaches as to which stats they are using or think are important, but this brings up an interesting conversation with them.
Re: difference between stolen base and defensive indifference
Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 8:25 am
by PetroGuy
This isn't a bad idea, but it does open yourself up for more questions. For instance, what if the kid on first is a fast kid who steals just about every time they get on first. Do you take away an SB just because of the situation? If you give them the SB but take it away for slower kids, now you have to judge more the speed of the runner and the lead and the pitcher's pickoff move to make a scoring decision. There is a much greater chance of losing the consistency we all talk about if you do this.
I try to go by the rules as much as possible so I have something to go back to in case someone questions some stats. I have enough trouble with the judgement calls we are expected to make as it is.