Error or Hit...

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LuvToFish
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Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:23 pm

Error or Hit...

Post by LuvToFish » Wed May 04, 2011 7:18 am

I had a situation last night where I needed to make a decision on a play. Was it a hit or was it an error. I ended up charging the 2nd baseman an error on a hard hit ground ball that deflected over his right shoulder either by his glove or from a bad hop. 2 plays later our pitcher gave up a grand slam home run. No ER were charged due to the error on the 2nd baseman whom would have had the 3rd out had he fielded the ball cleanly and made the play at first base.

Had I called the hard hit grounder a base hit -- the pitcher would have been hit with 4 ER.

So -- what criteria do the members of this forum use in a case like this? Is it an error or a base hit? Had he fielded the ball cleanly -- it would have been considered a nice play due to the velocity of the grounder. However, this is High School Varsity baseball and at a minimum I would have expected the ball to be knocked down since he was directly in front of it.

Thoughts? Insight?

Thanks

-ltf
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mprusak
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Re: Error or Hit...

Post by mprusak » Wed May 04, 2011 8:22 am

That's always tough...you face these types of judgement calls just about every game. We always have two scorers. I keep score on iScore and we also have someone keeping a paper book. I will go over and check with the other guy to see how he saw it and come to a consensus that way. When in doubt, I tend to give the benefit of any doubt to our players.

As to your situation, its really tough without seeing the play, but on really hard hit balls that they don't even get a glove on, I tend to lean towards hit.

I know it's not life or death, but I can relate to the agonizing over how to score plays like this. I take it very seriously, and constantly think about if I incorrectly took a hit away from a kid, etc.
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OhioTex
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Re: Error or Hit...

Post by OhioTex » Wed May 04, 2011 8:43 am

Agree..scorer judgement, need to see it live to be able to judge..

I also believe applying a consistent standard player to player, team to team, game to game is the ideal... You may tend to favor hitters or fielders or pitchers, but the ideal is to find a comfortable consistency and try to be objective and devoid of situational standards,... Ie regardless of the later grand slam.. It is or is not an error or hit in your standard... Consequences to stats may vary if later grand slam or not, but the decision on the play itself needs to standalone..

Professional scorers often re assess initial judgement, change a hit to to error or error to hit later, not uncommon, but that should be based on reflection of the play not what happens later...

For some guidance, MLB rule book includes the 'ordinary effort' clause in it's commentary. .. The rule book for NFHS oddly does not include ' the ordinary effort' clause in it's rule book ( but It may in it's case book). But in my experince the 'oridnary effort' standard is used in practice in my high school scoreing experience).. The ordinary effort clause is further elaborated on as to mean ordinary fielder using ordinary effort, not ordinary effort for best fielder.. Nor ordinary effort effort for poor fielder player, but ordinary effort for ordinary player... A subjective standard for sure..

My three cents
LuvToFish
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Re: Error or Hit...

Post by LuvToFish » Wed May 04, 2011 9:01 am

Thanks for your comments and insight.

I spoke to another parent who is quite knowledgeable with baseball and whom has coached the game for years. In his judgement, he felt it should be called a base hit since the ball appeared to take a bad hop and with a lot of zing on it.

I feel it could go either way. If I had a different angle or perspective on the play I might have scored it otherwise. At this point I'm going with "base hit" unless the HS Coach indicates otherwise.

Thanks Again

-ltf
Rix
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Re: Error or Hit...

Post by Rix » Thu May 12, 2011 2:22 pm

Great topic. One that I battle with constantly.

The easiest way that I can describe what I do is that it is a moving target!

As my daughter progressed from 10U to 12U, the standards changed because "ordinary effort" increased as the players experience did. Then it increases even more once I score her games in All-Star traveling or when she plays her Middle School team.

At the end of the day, I see scoring as a measure of player performance (more so than historical record). That is the practical application of the stats. It becomes an evaluating tool and comparison of players allowing decision makers to analyze player performance and make decisions based on facts.

"Ordinary Effort" is what guides me in deciding whether it is a hit or an error. I think OhioTex put it the best and helped to clarify my approach. I don't say that this play would have been made by our best 2nd baseman, but would it have been made by our ordinary infielder.

Sometimes, I use the "was it in the glove or not" approach. That is usually the most simple way to approach it by me during the game. If it's in the glove, then it shows that the player had enough skill to position themselves correctly to make the play, but didn't. Then it's usually easy to make the call unless it was a full stretched out dive that bounced off the players glove.

Just sharing the way I approach it. Great to hear other point of views.
CarlosPeguero
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2011 10:44 pm

Re: Error or Hit...

Post by CarlosPeguero » Sat May 21, 2011 10:55 pm

Just a quick note here, you mentioned it was a bad hop, which would mean it was a hit--although I am only going by what you said.
GLMSAS11
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Re: Error or Hit...

Post by GLMSAS11 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:37 am

i think i know the answer for this one but here's the situation.
a player hits a normal grounder to 2nd the 2nd baseman fields it clean throws to first and the fast runner beats the throw. Everything is ordinary except the runner's speed.
if the 2nd baseman would have charged the ball by a step or 2 or made a quick throw it would have been an out.
Hit or Error?
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OhioTex
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Re: Error or Hit...

Post by OhioTex » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:59 pm

Impossible to truely judge without seeing But

Sounds like, fielded clean, thrown accurate and receive clean. Just got beat out
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PetroGuy
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Re: Error or Hit...

Post by PetroGuy » Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:56 am

I agree with OhioTex. From your description, there is no physical misplay of the ball. This is a hit all the way. A fielder can sit back and wait and wait and wait for a very slow roller to reach them and it is still a hit.
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