Occupied, subs and force plays (answered, awaiting user response)

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5ynv5e4zz4
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Occupied, subs and force plays (answered, awaiting user response)

Post by 5ynv5e4zz4 » Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:48 am

Hi,
I have several questions for scoring some things on iScore. And this way I would like to tell how I am really happy with the app and their admins. I had problems with logging in to my iScore central and I got help the same day :D


Occupied
The European Baseball Association scores these as "occupied". I.e. runners on first and third then the runner on first goes on second but the catcher decides not to throw on second so that the runner on third does not go home. I would not score a stolen base for the runner on first base because the defense did not make an attempt to make an out on that runner. What would be the most accurate scoring on that play?
Force play and tag play
Force play option for making an out on runners does not give the pannel for marking players that made the out but the Tag play option does. Why is that?
So i.e. runner on second and the batter hits a ground ball to SS and he tags the runner on second. So the app ask you who handled the ball on the fielders choice and I select the SS and the runner on second is tagged out and the app asks me again who handled the play and I select the SS again. In this play SS gets 2 PO.
Subs
When I am making substitutions I have to select the change two times? To put the new player in the lineup and again to put him in defense?

Last question
When i.e. full bases and 2 outs and the out is made by the third baseman by catching a grounder and stepping on third. When i select fielders choice for the batter how should I score the rest of the runners? Should I leave the runner on 3rd on the base or send him home with "Run not scored" ? Because the program will score a run even though the 3rd out is made.
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team mom
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Re: Occupied, subs and force plays

Post by team mom » Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:45 am

In fastpitch, your "occupied" situation is specifically described and scored as a stolen base. I'm not sure if baseball rules are difference.

"3) In the first and third double steal, credit the runner advancing to second base with a stolen base if no throw is made (unless indifference because of a lopsided score was the cause of no defensive action), even if the
advance was made immediately after rounding on a walk" ~NFCA Softball scoring rules

Forceout vs tag, your SS should only get one PO for that play. I would need to recreate on my device to see what is happening or maybe someone else can answer.

Subs - yes you have to enter defensive and offensive subs separately. You can enter at the same time if you wish (by hitting the offense/defense tabs on the top of the sub screen) or you can wait until defense/offense switches to make the sub. Many scorers may not know of a defensive switch until the team takes the field. And when you say lineup, you should be making offensive subs not changing the starting lineup. Changes to the starting lineup are retroactive to start of game.

FC with runner on third, advancing the runner and selecting run not scored is the correct way to handle that.
Team Mom

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OhioTex
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Re: Occupied, subs and force plays

Post by OhioTex » Fri Apr 28, 2017 9:07 am

moderator note: Thread moved from iScore Central Viewer section to iScore Baseball Section as these questions seem to be more about baseball rules and using the baseball scorekeeper app (green icon) than the Central Viewer App (blue icon)

Welcome to the Forum!
( I always like hearing from users from other countries, we have forum users in Asia, Europe, Australia, India as well as North and South America .)
  • I agree with my co moderator, Team Mom, on all her points/responses.. but here is some additional information and a second perspective - if needed.
5ynv5e4zz4 wrote:Occupied
The European Baseball Association scores these as "occupied". I.e. runners on first and third then the runner on first goes on second but the catcher decides not to throw on second so that the runner on third does not go home. I would not score a stolen base for the runner on first base because the defense did not make an attempt to make an out on that runner. What would be the most accurate scoring on that play?
    • The most accurate scoring would be "what your EBA league rules prescribe (sorry)". If you have a Rule source link for " European Baseball Association" or reference for "occupied" - I would be glad to look at it. Have not heard the phrase "occupied" used in terms with a base advancement before. Forum has had other users in Europe, and from memory they generally followed Official Baseball Rules (OBR) . I am sure there are European leagues that have different rule sets, i just do not have any reference for them.

      For MLB which uses OBR, the scoring direction on the first and third situation is to ordinarily score advance from first to second as a Stolen Base even if no play made on the runner, the commentary specifically addresses the first and third situation where defense had a strategic reason to not let runner score from third - not indifference. (source see OBR Rule 9.07(g) Comment http://mlb.mlb.com/documents/0/4/0/2249 ... t69t59.pdf) by the way, this is consistent with Team Mom direction using NCAA softball guidance and would be same using NCAA baseball guidance too.

      In some youth ages, I have seen scorers use, "Defensive Indifference" button in iscore to represent " no attempt:" .. that is the choice they make if it fits their league/level/coach needs.

      In iscore, As a scorer you can use "Held Up" on the advance if you do not want to score a stolen base. (you can also add a note to say , "No Attempt", if you believe play by play needs that extra clarification.
5ynv5e4zz4 wrote:Force play and tag play
Force play option for making an out on runners does not give the pannel for marking players that made the out but the Tag play option does. Why is that?
So i.e. runner on second and the batter hits a ground ball to SS and he tags the runner on second. So the app ask you who handled the ball on the fielders choice and I select the SS and the runner on second is tagged out and the app asks me again who handled the play and I select the SS again. In this play SS gets 2 PO.
Subs
  • the reason is more about how iscore handles the "Fielders Choice" than force out/tag out.
    also Double check your stats, I do not believe you are double counted, if you entered the same fielders sequence each time. (the program knows not to) if you are please post back and we can investigate further
    • Tag out FC example, R2, no outs...
      In play > fielders choice > hit location, next > SS, done> out , tagged out> ss, done.
      Review of stats only show 1 PO for SS. a FC for Batter
      Review of scorecard, shows a FC on batter, FC6 out1, between second and third on Runner


      Force out FC example, R1 no outs...
      In play > fielders choice > hit location, next > SS, done> out , force out.
      Review of stats only show 1 PO for SS. a FC for Batter
      Review of scorecard, shows a FC on batter, FC6 out1, between first and second on Runner
    When you choose the Batter Runner Action as Fielders choice, you are asked, to touch the fielders involved in putting the runner out. So later when you say the runner was Forced out, you are not asked to re enter the fielder action. Force out being the most common type of fielders choice. You are correct, if you choose Tag Out, you are asked again for the fielders, (not 100% sure why) but if you reenter the same fielders it does not double count PO and Assists. you can also skip touching fielders a second time by just tap done.
5ynv5e4zz4 wrote: When I am making substitutions I have to select the change two times? To put the new player in the lineup and again to put him in defense?
  • the reason is the program can serve amateur leagues that have free defensive subs as well as professional leagues that have strict rules for substitution and require offense and defense replacement at same time. If your league, is like MLB, (or NCAA for that matter) and when you make a sub it is for both offense and defense simultaneously, Enable the SIMULTANEOUS SUBS settings on game options. With that setting enabled, when you make a sub, you will be prompted to also change both offense and defense at the same time.
5ynv5e4zz4 wrote: Last question
When i.e. full bases and 2 outs and the out is made by the third baseman by catching a grounder and stepping on third. When i select fielders choice for the batter how should I score the rest of the runners? Should I leave the runner on 3rd on the base or send him home with "Run not scored" ? Because the program will score a run even though the 3rd out is made.
  • iscore entry : In Play > Fielders choice > optional (hit Location strength/type, NEXT ) > 3B, done > What happen to R3? > Home > Safe > Run Not scored> What happen to R2? > Out, Third, Force Out.

    In this situation, you would need to tell the program to "Not Score the run" from third. this is because otherwise it would score the run, even with a third out made, because the program can not determine the timing like a human can, and there are very unique rare situations where the run could have counted. the program will ask lead runner back till it finds a third out and then return back to scoring screen. If for some reasons you missed "Run Not Scored" you can correct in game using "MISC > "Adjust Score" or post game, in pitch-by-pitch game editor
..........................................
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OhioTex
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Re: Occupied, subs and force plays (answered, awaiting user response)

Post by OhioTex » Tue May 02, 2017 9:27 am

@5ynv5e4zz4.. any response?

I did some google search on European baseball leagues...

I found Euro League Baseball and The European Association of Professional Baseball (EAPB) (but I did not find EBA or their rule set,)

I found a couple other notable European leagues below .. and their rules sets. most use MLB OBR as their basis, some even verbatim
(sure some some variations buried in translation, but for the most part OBR governs)
..........................................
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5ynv5e4zz4
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Re: Occupied, subs and force plays (answered, awaiting user response)

Post by 5ynv5e4zz4 » Tue May 09, 2017 1:17 pm

Thank you for your help. And sorry that I didnt respond for a while. ( I am a newbie in forums and I kinda waited for a notification)

I actually use IScore for our Softball league (in Croatia). I took the responsibility of educating and organizing Croatian scorers. It is not a big deal because there is only handful of teams in Croatia. But I never had a proper manual or set of rules for scoring softball so I don't know how to decide the proper ruling.
I started scoring baseball because they are better at organizing and they use Central European Baseball A (CEBA) official manual. And on one of classes I heard about the Occupied. But now I am not even sure if I got it right now that you say you never hear of it. I will explore more deeper in to it when I catch some time and come back to you with it :)
Ps. I got the manual via email and they explicitly told me not to share it, so I belive it is not publicly available.

And for the force out.
Your examples are clear so for unassisted plays . But if there is runner on 1B and the batter hits a ground ball to SS and he throws to 2nd baseman and they make a force out on the runner 6-4.
Me (and the rest of the scorers) were confused because the app doesn't ask how the out was made since unassisted plays are rarer and plays like 6-4 or 4-6 are more often.
5ynv5e4zz4
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Re: Occupied, subs and force plays (answered, awaiting user response)

Post by 5ynv5e4zz4 » Tue May 09, 2017 1:34 pm

I just tried out my example in a way that when the app asks me who handled the ball I selected 6-4 and the runner was out on Force out. The SS got an assist and the 2B got a putout.

PS. I cant find the SIMULTANEOUS SUBS button in the game options.
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OhioTex
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Re: Occupied, subs and force plays (answered, awaiting user response)

Post by OhioTex » Tue May 09, 2017 1:46 pm

The forum has a setting to let you get email notification when posts added to thread.

Softball, (slow pitch or fast pitch ?) has a few rule differences than baseball.. but many more similarities than differences and even fewer scoring differences.

As to the entry of R1 and 6-4 or 4-6 play.,
It is scored a fielders choice to the batter not a force out.. so
  • Iscore> in play > fielders choice > (optional hit location)> touch fielders involved in making the out , SS - 2B (aka 6-4) done, > what happen to R1? 2b, out, force out > what happen to batter? Safe, 1b, held up..
keep us posted on your progress or if have more questions
..........................................
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* FAQ http://iscoresports.com//baseball/support.php
* Updated Manual http://iscoresports.com/baseball/manual.php?gd=1
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OhioTex
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Re: Occupied, subs and force plays (answered, awaiting user response)

Post by OhioTex » Tue May 09, 2017 1:52 pm

The SIMULTAIOUS SUBS toggle option is in game setting screen

The game setting "options" is a menu row when you first set up a game (the row between game date/time and game name)

When scoring a game, it is the tool or gear icon (bottom right of main scoring screen) that brings up game setting options
..........................................
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* FAQ http://iscoresports.com//baseball/support.php
* Updated Manual http://iscoresports.com/baseball/manual.php?gd=1
* Stat Formulas http://data.iscorecentral.com/legend.ph ... internal=1
5ynv5e4zz4
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Re: Occupied, subs and force plays (answered, awaiting user response)

Post by 5ynv5e4zz4 » Tue May 09, 2017 2:17 pm

Image

then
Image



Does it have to do with the "Scorekeeper level"?

OhioTex wrote:The forum has a setting to let you get email notification when posts added to thread. (

Softball, (slow pitch or fast pitch ?) has a few rule differences than baseball.. but many more similarities than differences and even fewer scoring differences.

As to the entry of R1 and 6-4 or 4-6 play.,
It is scored a fielders choice to the batter not a force out.. so

Iscore> in play > fielders choice > (optional hit location)> touch fielders involved in making the out , SS - 2B (aka 6-4) done, > what happen to R1? 2b, out, force out > what happen to batter? Safe, 1b, held up..

keep us posted on your progress or if have more questions
The email notification box wasn't checked by default :roll:

We have only fastpitch in Croatia :)

Thank you very much for your help :lol: :lol: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Can't wait to have another question ;)
5ynv5e4zz4
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Re: Occupied, subs and force plays (answered, awaiting user response)

Post by 5ynv5e4zz4 » Tue May 09, 2017 2:18 pm

http://imgur.com/a/7q7vY

The pictures are not working :/
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