Run scoring on dropped 3rd strike 3rd out

[gingbear]

Runner on 3rd 2 outs. The batter swings at a wild pitch that goes to the backstop. The runner on third crosses home before the catcher throws the ball to first for the 3rd out. The umpire says the run counts because a dropped third strike is not a force out since the ball was never in play. Did he get this right or wrong? Dropped 3rd strike is new to our Little League this year.

[PetroGuy]

That is wrong. A run with the ball in play cannot score if the batter/runner does not reach first base safely.

[Camerabry]

Yeah. Ump is wrong. Not the first time. Not the last.....

[PetroGuy]

To be more precise, here is the definition from the MLB rules:

4.09 (a)

One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first,
second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.
EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a
play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first
base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is
declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

Note that the dropped thrid strike situation would fall under the first exception. The third out in this case is made by the batter-runner before he touches first base. I don't know the LL rules on this, but I'm going to guess they are the same or similar.

[gingbear]

Thank you for the reference to the rule.

[OhioTex]

never seen a league rule high school, usssa, little league etc, that would differ than MLB on that one. . ump missed it

[Bryan D Shepherd]

It is a force out.

If the fielder just has to tag the bag before the (batter-)runner touches it and doesn't have to tag the runner directly, it's a force out. On a DTS, catcher just has to get the ball to the first baseman whose foot is on the bag (hopefully) to get the batter out. Therefore, no run should score.

[Tom Barrister]

I realize that this is an old thread. I'm replying to it so that others who may search for this on the internet in the future will find it.

The batter does not have to be forced out at first. The batter must reach first safely for any runs to count. He can be forced out, tagged out, or declared out by the umpire (i.e. in MLB, for leaving the batting circle without running to first) before safely reaching first base. This is also true of any other baserunner in a force situation. If a fielder who has possession of the ball can touch the base for a (force) out, tagging that runner before the base is safely reached amounts to the same thing, and no run is scored if it's the third out of the inning.

[kjboyleii]

Tagging the base to retire the runner is NOT the primary determining factor on whether an out is a force. A force can only occur as a result of the batter-runner advancing to first base -- that is, the batter running to first forces the advance of other runners. There are other plays where the defense can tag the bag to retire the runner which are not force plays. The best example of this is throwing behind a runner that did not tag up on a fly ball. This is NOT a force -- it is an APPEAL out.

[Bryan D Shepherd]

Let me clarify: When I said if the fielder only has to touch the bag for it to be a force out, what I meant was that if that's all a fielder has to do the force out rule applies, i.e. no runners can score when the third out is a force out. Same deal, if the runner leaves too soon and is put out on appeal, the force out rule applies and no other runners can score.

I apologize for the confusion, but when I umpired that's how I remembered it.