Relief pitcher earned run question

[MORPWRR]

Fastpitch softball scenario:

Pitcher A starts inning and give up a bunt single and a base on balls. Pitcher B comes in a relieves pitcher A with runners on first and second. Pitcher B proceeds to strike out the next 3 batters, but in the process of doing so has 2 wild pitches which allows the runner from 2nd to score.

iScore charged it as an earned run to pitcher A. I have looked it up in NCAA rules and I could not find this scenario addressed. However here is a quote from the rules section 14.24.1:

"Any pitcher who is replaced is charged with earned runs for which she is totally responsible."

To me, pitcher A is not totally responsible for the runner from second scoring as she was no longer pitching. I believe it should be a run charged to her, but not earned. Am I missing something?

[FTMSupport]

We read that as any runner put on base by Pitcher A is that pitcher's responsibility. If pitcher B gave up a home run, pitcher A is not responsible for the home run, but the first two runs are charged to Pitcher A. Unless you have a specific rule that says differently, it seems Pitcher A would be responsible for the runners put on base by that pitcher.

[OhioTex]

If you want more clarity..Read MLB 16.g and the commentary.. It covers the relief pitcher scenerio...and it aligns with iscore..

MLB 10.16.g
When pitchers are changed during an inning, the official scorer shall not charge the relief pitcher with any run (earned or unearned) scored by a runner who was on base at the time such relief pitcher entered the game, nor for runs scored by any runner who reaches base on a fielder’s choice that puts out a runner left on base by any preceding pitcher.

Rule 10.16(g) Comment:
It is the intent of Rule 10.16(g) to charge each pitcher with the number of runners he put on base, rather than with the individual runners. When a pitcher puts runners on base and is relieved, such pitcher shall be charged with all runs subsequently scored up to and including the number of runners such pitcher left on base when such pitcher left the game, unless such runners are put out without action by the batter (i.e., caught stealing, picked off base or called out for interference when a batter-runnerdoesnotreachfirstbaseontheplay). Forexample:

[MORPWRR]

Thanks OhioTex, but that quotes almost word for word what the NCAA rule book states. My question had to do more with whether the run charged to the first pitcher would be earned or not. Our high school scorekeeper, to the best of my knowledge, does not charge the runs as earned against the starting pitcher when a reliever comes in. MLB, nor NCAA does not specify whether or not runs scored from base runners put on by pitcher A and allowed to score by pitcher B, are earned or unearned. Therefore, from discussing with others and the basics of not being in the rule book, it goes back to how you would score it if there were no pitching change as to whether it was earned or unearned. It pretty much is only unearned runs if there are errors in the inning, period, whether or not there is a pitching change. Since a wild pitch is not an error, the runs would be earned.

What was confusing to me is how NCAA says the run is charged if the pitcher is "totally responsible". I was just thinking, "how could the pitcher be totally responsible when they did not throw the pitch that allowed a runner to score?" But I accept that they are earned runs.

Oh, and by the way, I was not questioning this to try and help my daughter's stats, rather the other way around. My daughter was the one who threw the 2 wild pitches to allow a runner to score.!

[Camerabry]

I've always thought that if a runner earns a spot on base by pitcher A and pitcher B gets the runs scored on him before 3 outs should have been made, the runs are earned on pitcher A.

The runners wouldn't be there if pitcher A didn't throw the ball to them.

[OhioTex]

@morpwrr

Two responses...

#1

...... MLB, nor NCAA does not specify whether or not runs scored from base runners put on by pitcher A and allowed to score by pitcher B, are earned or unearned.

I disagree, the mlb rules do specify to charge each pitcher earned and unearned runs..Here is a more complicated commentary example that although it is trying to illustrate another point, should reinforce the rules do address

MLB 10.16.i......
(1) With two out and Peter pitching, Abel reaches first base on a base on balls. Baker reaches first base on an error. Roger relieves Peter. Charlie hits a home run, scoring three runs. The official scorer shall charge two unearned runs to Peter, one earned run to Roger and three unearnedl runs to the team (because the inning should have ended with the third out when Baker batted and an error was committed).

#2

......
What was confusing to me is how NCAA says the run is charged if the pitcher is "totally responsible". I was just thinking, "how could the pitcher be totally responsible when they did not throw the pitch that allowed a runner to score?" But I accept that they are earned runs.
.....

Same way they are responsible if reliever throws a home run pitch..

[MORPWRR]

Thanks OhioTex for "sort of" taking my text out of context. I was referring to your quote of MLB rules which stated the runs woul be charged to the starting pitcher, but not for certain charging them as earned runs. However, as I have already stated, I agree that unless there are erros, the run charged will be earned.

[OhioTex]

@morpwrr

Some more on the topic.... In case my response was perceived as being argumentative (not my intent)....

As you probably saw elsewhere on this fourm, there are a number of posts discussing earned and unearned run determination. It seems to be one of the more complicated/challangimg things to get right and that is without throwing in the 'relief pitcher' twist... Given the multitude of scenerios and complexity of rules, it is an understandable challange for any part time scorer to get it all right..

My earlier reply was not so much focused on 'how to score your situation' (b/c it sounds like you knew that answer) ... .but more to the comment/question that you were struggling to find it explicitly stated in the rule books ..how to handle, / where that was covered. So that is the reason for the quotes, to help you find it in the rules for either your own education or arm you with specifics to help you help the scorer to understand a step they may be missing...assigning earned/ unearned runs to all the right pitchers..

My first reply gave the place in the MLB rules that cover that it should be done.. but I realized in your follow up, the excerpt I provide was not very clear (silent) on earned/unearned determination, (just whose responsibility each runner was) ...So I posted the second excerpt from 10.16.i as an an example to show, both pitchers get charged and earned/unearned can be complicated and some what unexpected at times.

I hope the rule references help. For me I tend to let iscore do the work for me.. But it can be so 'situational' iscore does not always get it right.. Iscore generally does get it right (better than i can do manually) but it is not perfct, there have been cases posted on forum where manual override of stats is appropriate. So If in your travels you find iscore not handling as expected, (due to relif pitcher, wild pitch, error, passed ball etc) please feel free to post detailed situation for developers to test...( I did not get the sense that was the request of this thread, but if. Misread, let me know)

Good luck and enjoy...

[MORPWRR]

Thanks OhioTex. I was perceiving it as a bit argumentative, but now I see you were not, just trying to help clarify. Up until recently, I was always content to let iScore do the "math" on everything until this season's high school softball where there was a book scorekeeper that kept the stats. I would compare what they had with iScore and sometimes it was different. Some of the differences were due to differences of opinion on error or base hit, but some of the differences were how manually reconstructing an inning differed from iScore. My daughter has the iPad at school right now (has a book she is reading on it) so I can't go look at a specific, but I kind of remember an example which I will put. Maybe this could be passed on to the developers.

Again, I don't remember the exact scenario, but the basic situation was a runner on 1st, routine ground ball hit to short. Short makes a play on the lead runner, but second baseman drops the ball, so both runners are safe. I scored it as a fielder's choice, runner safe at 2nd on error by 2nd baseman. That lead runner ended up scoring during the inning, but not before there would have been three outs had it not been for 2nd baseman's error. iScore showed it as an earned run that way. However, if I changed it from fielder's choice to on by error, then iScore shows it as unearned. Wouldn't the run be unearned either way as the error prolonged the inning allowing the run to score?

I agree that scoring is not an easy task when it comes to judgement calls as there are vast differences of opinion in what is "ordinary effort". I have looked at games on Colorado's high school stat site and have seen games where one team reports something like 12 hits, but the scorer for the other team only shows about 6 hits off their pitching.

Thanks again

[OhioTex]

( It is late and been a long week, so I may not be thinking clearly.. But building off your
description, i just tried a couple simple scenerios, and am wondering what is going on..)

FTM...( or others)
Can you run the following simple scenerio and explain why iscore has run earned?

New game,
Batter 1, strike out,
batter 2 strike out.
Batter 3 single, (in play, hit single, location, safe, first, held up)
Batter 4 single (in play, hit single (or fielders choice),
...WHat happened to Runner that was at first? (safe, second , error, 2B)
Batter 5 doubles, (in play
..What happen to runner at second (home, advanced by batter, )
..What happen to tunner at first? ,(third, advance by batter)
Batter 6 stike

Iscore credits batter 3 run as earned.. Despite batter 3 having base life extended.