Force out question

[mitcharf]

Hello!

I have a rules question. I specifically play ASA adult slow-pitch softball, but I think my question would likely apply to any form of baseball or softball.

I was watching a game recently. The situation was tied score, time expired, two outs, home team batting, runners on first and third. The batter hits a line drive into shallow left field which is not caught. The runner from third scores easily. HOWEVER, the runner from first saw pretty quickly that the ball was not going to get caught. He took a few steps toward second base, but once he saw the ball hit the ground and the runner from third score, he walked back to his team's dugout and began celebrating with them. The other team SHOULD have thrown the ball to second base, getting the force out for the third out and thus negating the run. But they did not (this was a novice level game, so I'm guessing they either didn't notice that the runner never went to second or maybe they didn't know the rules). Anyway, the game ended like that.

Ok, so what's the question? Well, let's say the team on defense realized their mistake before they had left the field, but NOT before the runner from first base got into his dugout. So the sequence of events would be like this:

- Batter hits ball which is not caught
- Runner from third scores
- Runner from first goes into his dugout
- Team on defense realizes their mistake and throws the ball to second base

My question is this -- do they get the force out? The reason why I think they would NOT necessarily get the force out is because there is a rule (in the 2010 ASA rulebook it is Rule 8, Section 7.U) which states that a runner is out when they "abandon a base and enter the team area or leave live ball territory. EFFECT: The ball remains live." So, presumably once that runner enters the dugout, they are called out for the third out of the inning. And once they've been called out for this, they can no longer be forced out at second base -- you can't get the same runner out twice.

This brought to my mind the so-called 4th out rule, but that doesn't apply here. The typical example of that rule is something like one out, runners on second and third. Batter hits a fly ball and both runners leave on contact. Runner from third scores. The team on defense throws the ball to second base, appealing that the runner left early, and get that out. That's the third out of the inning. If that's ALL they do, then the run still counts. But if they throw the ball to third and appeal there as well, they get the so-called "4th out" and the run does not count. Anyway, that rule ONLY applies to appeal plays on a runner who scored. In the case I am describing, the runner you'd want to make the play against did not score, and in any case, there is no appeal play to be made. The play they would like to make is a force out at second, but as I said, the runner is already out for other reasons.

I've scoured the rule book but I have been unable to find anything to suggest the team on defense would be able to make a force out on that runner.

Now, you may be saying "Well, if the runner from first base had been running like he should have been, they wouldn't have had a play on him at second base anyway." That's probably true. But what if you had a really slow runner at first base and a really fast runner at third base? If the runner on first realized that he couldn't make it to second in time, he could choose instead to sprint for his dugout, with the goal of entering the dugout after the other runner crossed the place, but before they could get the force out at second base. In this case, the runner from first would be deliberately getting himself out (by leaving the field) in order to prevent the team from getting a forceout. And THAT seems to be to be against the spirit of the rules, although as I said, I can find no rule against this.

Anyway, I'm curious to know your thoughts on this situation. Thanks!

Mitch
http://blog.mitcharf.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[OhioTex]

Mitch - long but interesting.. in my opinion, the force out would negate the run. if player left field or not.

[mitcharf]

I agree that is how it seems like the rules SHOULD shake out, but I'm unable to find support for that argument in the rules themselves.

Looking further, I think the main relevant rules are:

Rule 8.7.U - The runner is out once they enter their team area or leave live ball territory

and

Rule Supplement 1.M - "An appeal may be made after the third out of an inning as long as it is made properly. The appeal must be made on a runner who has scored but missed a base or left too soon."

So in the scenario I describe, the third out is recorded when the runner from first base enters his dugout. At that point, by RS1.M, the defending team would be unable to make any appeal, since the 3rd out had been recorded and their appeal is NOT on a runner who scored.

It seems like there has to be some rule I'm missing, because it's crazy that a loophole like this would exist (although it's a fairly unusual situation). I'm hoping someone can point out to me the rule that I am overlooking or misinterpreting.

[PetroGuy]

This is the applicable MLB rules, but I bet the same applies to softball

MLB Rule 4.09

4.09 HOW A TEAM SCORES.
(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first,
second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.
EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a
play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first
base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is
declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

It looks to me like all three exceptions to the rule could apply in this case. The B/R never reaches first so the run doesn't score. The runner on first is possibly forced out although I'm still looking for a rule about if the force is still on when the B/R abandons the bases. Finally, both the B/R and the runner on first could be declared out because they failed to touch their next base.

[mitcharf]

I probably should have made it clear, but the batter-runner DID touch first base. The only one who didn't touch the next base was the runner from first. So like you, I'm trying to find a rule that says the force is still on if the runner is out for abandoning the bases.

Or I guess it doesn't even have to be an abandoning the bases scenario. What about if the batter-runner rounded first and physically passed the runner from first, before the ball was thrown to second, but after the run had scored? (Rule 7D)

Or what if the ball had been hit to the second baseman and they tried to tag the runner from first, but the runner ran outside the baseline, and thus got called out for THAT? (Rule 7A)

I would assume both of those things would similarly remove the force out at second base, and both are things that the batting team could do deliberately (although in the second case, it would only work if the defensive team tried to tag rather than just throw to second).

[PetroGuy]

It still sounds like exception (3) above. The preceding runner (runner on first) did not legally touch second base. He should have been declared out for not touching second (thus ending the force situation) or by the defense forcing him out at second (not on appeal). There is no time limit to the force out at second.

Either way, the run should not have counted.

[mitcharf]

The runner on third base crossed the plate. The runner on first base is a SUCCEEDING runner to the runner on third, not a preceding runner. So exception 3 would not apply.

I DO agree that the runner from first base did not touch second base, but the same runner cannot be called out twice. If they are already called out for entering their dugout, then I don't see how they can also be called out for not touching second base.

HOWEVER, I brought up this same question on another forum and someone brought up a good point (the complete thread is here, if you're interested: http://www.discussfastpitch.com/softbal ... stion.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). To summarize, they argued that the actual sequence of events would be this:
1) Batter hits the ball and becomes a batter-runner
2) Ball lands uncaught
3) Runner from third base scores
4) Game is over, since winning run has scored

So the runner from first base would NOT be called out for entering the dugout, since the game is over. However, the defense is still free to throw the ball to second base (or first base, if the batter-runner has not yet reached it) and appeal that the runner missed the bag (as allowed under under rule supplement 1.A, 1.C, 1.E.3, 1.J, and 1.N). That would still be a force out and the run would not count. The offense could not then appeal that their runner entered the dugout and should have been called out, because that is not a valid type of appeal (rule supplement 1.A lists the valid types of appeals, and that is not one of them). The team on offense COULD protest the game, but I doubt it would go in their favor.

THAT SAID, all of the above logic really hinges on the fact that we're dealing with the game winning run. So what about a similar scenario, except that the play begins with the home team trailing by a single run? So the sequence of events would then be:

1) Batter hits ball and becomes batter-runner
2) Ball hits the ground in left field
3) Runner from third base crosses the plate (scoring the tying run, thus game not over)
4) Batter-runner reaches first base
5) Runner from first base enters the dugout

Since the run crossing the plate would not end the game, then rule 8.7.U would still apply and the runner from first base would be called out, right? It seems to me that this would be the third out of the inning, and thus rule supplement 1M would preclude the defense from making an appeal on the runner from first base.

[Camerabry]

The runner at 2nd is out when he leaves field of play. Game over. The base runners must reach the next base for a run to score on a third out. He never reached. This looks like a never ending thread that will never make any sense.

[mitcharf]

The runner at 2nd is out when he leaves field of play. Game over. The base runners must reach the next base for a run to score on a third out. He never reached. This looks like a never ending thread that will never make any sense.

What rule are you citing to indicate that the runners must reach their next base for a run to score on a third out?

Rule 5.5.B states:
No run shall be scored if the third out of the inning is the result of:
1. A batter-runner being called out prior to reaching first base or any other runner forced out due to the batter becoming a batter-runner...
2. A runner being put out by a tag or live ball appeal play prior to the lead runner touching home plate.
3. A preceding runner is declared out on an appeal play.

Again, none of these are the case here.

Rule Supplement 1.J states When an appeal is the third out and a force out, no runs shall score.

As previously discussed, in this case the third out is not a force out, so that wouldn't apply here.

I can't find any rule which states the runners have to reach their next base in order for the run to score. The only rules I find indicate that if they do not reach their next base due to a force out, then the run does not score. Can you direct me to the rule which I'm missing here?

[PetroGuy]

At the risk of extending an undying thread....

mitcharf, I agree with you about the preceding runner. I guess I had a brain malfunction while trying to find the answer and switched up preceding and following runners. After looking at this some more, I don't really think that the defense even has to throw the ball to second for the force to once the umpire calls R1 out for abandoning the bases. Rule 2 of the MLB rules does not define a FORCE OUT, but a FORCE PLAY.

A FORCE PLAY is a play in which a runner legally loses his right to occupy a base
by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

Once R1 loses the right to first base, This becomes a force play. The out for abandonment would be a force out unless R1 touched second base prior to leaving the bases. I still go with the run not counting even if the defense does not throw the ball to second (presuming the umpire called R1 out).