Uncaught third strike, batter-runner safe at first, when to credit a PB/WP to Catcher/Pitcher? (rule interpretation)

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OhioTex
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Uncaught third strike, batter-runner safe at first, when to credit a PB/WP to Catcher/Pitcher? (rule interpretation)

Post by OhioTex » Wed May 31, 2017 6:05 am

a discussion came up in another thread, that i thought i would pick up here for RULE interpretation help. (the originating thread had different issues going on and I wanted to focus here on the specific stat rule interpretation question and its implication to iScore).

RE: Uncaught third strike, batter-runner safe at first, when to credit (or not credit) a PB/WP to Catcher/Pitcher ?

Currently in iScore, whenever you enter the Batter Safe at First on Drop Third Strike (or Wild Pitch Third Strike) button, a Passed Ball/ Wild Pitch is credited in the fielding stats to Catcher/Pitcher. Which by MLB Rule 9.13 (b) I always thought made sense. But a comment to Rule 9.13 gave me cause to reconsider. (both MLB rule references copied below.)

I would appreciate others input on this, as i have talked myself into a circle. I think answer should be same for softball/baseball.

Situation:
  • Runner on base, an un caught third strike on batter, batter-runner is safe at first, but defense makes an out on another runner on the play...
Question:
  • Does the catcher still get dinged with a PB (or pitcher w/ WP)?
What about....
    • a) What if defense gets out the Lead runner? (i.e. makes a good strategic fielding decision)
      • e.g R2, 0 outs: D3S: Defense tags out R2 going to 3rd.

        Update: Answer No, Passed ball assigned to Catcher stats
        no base runners advance, (except batter-runner) and defense improved its situation from before the pitch ( better with R1 and 1 out, than R3 and 1 out, or R2 and 0 outs)
      b) what if defense got out trailing runner, but Lead runner did not advance ? (I know less likely real world scenario, but possible)
      • e.g, R2,R3, 0 outs: D3S: R3 held at 3rd, R2 tagged out, Batter safe at 1

        Update: Answer No, Passed ball assigned to Catcher stats
        no Base Runners Advanced (except batter-runner) and Defense improved their pre pitch situation ( R3 R1 and 1 out vs R3 R2 and o out)
      c) what if defense got a trailing runner out but allowed lead runner to advance/score? (another, low probability real world scenario)
      • e.g, R2,R3, 0 outs: D3S: R3 scores, R2 out at 3rd, Batter safe at 1?

        Update: Answer Yes, Passed ball assigned to catcher.
        the passed ball allowed the batter-runner to reach first and allowed the runner R3 to advance (even score) defense worsened their situation pre/post pitch..
        (FYI batter does not get an RBI because his actions at the plate did not give rise to the run scoring).
      d) What if a force out, third out, is made ?
      • e.g.. Bases loaded, 2 outs, D3S, Catcher steps on Home for third out (the smart play) ?

        Update: Answer No, Passed ball assigned to Catcher stats
        Same answer for any 3rd out, force out, on BR, R1, R2, or R3 situation, no runs scored, no runners advance, no passed ball
      e) What if not a force out but a 2 out timing play, and runner advanced/ scored before 3rd out made?
      • e.g.. 2 outs, R1,R2, D3S, Catcher over throws third (error catcher), R2 scores and R1 tagged out at 3rd, (after R3 scored).

        Update: Answer Yes, Passed ball assigned to Catcher stats
        Batter Advances to first, and R2 advances to Third because of passed ball and R2 scores before third out is made, and R2 scores on Throwing error,
I initially thought the program was correct crediting a PB/WP to catcher/pitcher any time a Batter-runner safe at first on a uncaught third strike. but in reading the comment, and working through above examples, I don't think that holds. Also in going through above examples, I do not think as easy as saying NO PB/WP for any out made on the play. I think it is more complicated than that, and would depend on program looking for base runner advancing (which iscore does not currently do ). but then again, I maybe reading more into the comment than i should and should go back to KISS and always assign a PB/WP on a batter safe D3S. thoughts?

thanks
OhioTex

Original/related thread: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11903

some MLB rule References
MLB 9.12.f.2
When the catcher recovers the ball after a wild pitch or passed ball on the third strike, and throws out the batter- runner at first base, or tags out the batter-runner, but another runner or runners advance, the official scorer shall score the strikeout, the putout and assists, if any, and credit the advance of the other runner or runners on the play as a fielder’s choice.


9.13.(b)
The official scorer shall charge a catcher with a passed ball when the catcher fails to hold or to control a legally pitched ball that should have been held or controlled with ordinary effort, thereby permitting a runner or runners to advance. When the third strike is a passed ball, permitting the batter to reach first base, the official scorer shall score a strikeout and a passed ball.

Rule 9.13 Comment:
The official scorer shall not charge a wild pitch or passed ball if the defensive team makes an out before any runners advance. For example, if a pitch touches the ground and eludes the catcher with a runner on first base, but the catcher recovers the ball and throws to second base in time to retire the runner, the official scorer shall not charge the pitcher with a wild pitch. The official scorer shall credit the advancement of any other runner on the play as a fielder’s choice. If a catcher drops a pitch, for example, with a runner on first base, but the catcher recovers the ball and throws to second base in time to retire the runner, the official scorer shall not charge the catcher with a passed ball. The official scorer shall credit the advancement of any other runner on the play as a fielder’s choice.
Last edited by OhioTex on Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Uncaught third strike, batter-runner safe at first, when to credit a PB/WP to Catcher/Pitcher? (rule interpretation)

Post by PetroGuy » Wed May 31, 2017 1:59 pm

I think I read these differently than you. to me, it appears that in any situation where the defense retires a runner after a D3S (before anyone really advances to a base), then there is no PB/WP charged and all runners advance via FC. I read it that 9.12.f.2 covers the situation where the B/R is retired and 9.13 comment covers when any other runner is retired. No matter if the B/R is retired or any other runner is retired, all advancements are credited as FC and not a WP/PB.
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Re: Uncaught third strike, batter-runner safe at first, when to credit a PB/WP to Catcher/Pitcher? (rule interpretation)

Post by OhioTex » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:37 am

Open to others input..

@Petroguy, I think you and I are reading it more similar than not. but how would you score the below two situations.
  • Both situations are when batter reaches first safe on a D3S, My question is when should a Passed ball be credited ( or not) to catcher for these two batter safe but other runner out situations.
    (I am not focused on when batter out at first, on a d3S, just when safe.... b/c i do not think Iscore looks at outcome of other runners before assigning the passed ball)
    (I am also not concerned at this time about scorecard notation on runner advancing by Passed ball or fielders choice, as it is not a tracked stat, just a scorecard explanation).
how would you handle these speific situations ?
  • Situation A
    • R2, 1out
      Batter strikes out, but catcher does not catch third strike, clearly a passed ball.
      Batter-runner advances safe to first .
      R2 not stealing to begin, sees ball in dirt, tries to advance to third, but tagged out 2-5, at 3rd (2nd out)
    Stats: Pitcher credited a strike out, Batter charged a strike out. Catcher gets an assist on R2, Third base gets a put out on R2.
    Passed Ball? - I would now say, do not credit a passed ball to catcher even though batter Runner Advanced to first.- Because Catcher made an out on the play and no runner advanced, in this case even improved the defensive position, (2 out R1 vs 1 out R2)
    Iscore Entry? - Do you agree no Passed Ball charged to Catcher? If agree, how would you enter that in iscore and not have to do a manual edit override of Passed Ball. I have run into a road block on how to do that without having to manually over ride the PB stat on catcher.
  • Situation B
    • R1,R2,R3, 2 out
      Batter strikes out but catcher does not catch third strike, clearly a passed ball (similar if a wild pitch).
      Batter-runner advances safe to first
      Catcher gets ball, steps on home, forcing out of R3 (out three).
    stats: Pitcher credited a strike out. Batter credited a strike out. and Catcher credited a put out of R3 (3rd out).
    Passed ball?: I think we would agree no Passed ball should be credited to catcher as R3 was out and passed ball was of no consequence to defense no runner advanced/scored
    iScore entry ? how would you enter that in iscore and not have to have do a manual edit override of Passed Ball.. (same question as in situation 1 above)

    Best iScore Entry i could come up with
    • If enter, Strike > Safe > Dropped third strike > R3? Out, Home, Force out, Catcher , done >

      Iscore (Correctly) Credits - Pitcher credited a strike out. Batter credited a strike out. and Catcher credited a put out of R3 (3rd out).
      iscore ( Incorrectly) Credits - Catcher with a Passed Ball (PB)
      Issue - How to enter to avoid the Catcher getting a PB on this play, as the other stats are correct.
    Conclusion - I could not find a better way to enter this play in iScore , have to remember to manually correct PB in stats
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Re: Uncaught third strike, batter-runner safe at first, when to credit a PB/WP to Catcher/Pitcher? (rule interpretation)

Post by PetroGuy » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:24 am

The way I am reading the comment for 9.13 is that in both of your situations, there should not be a PB/WP charged. The defense retires another runner before any runners advance.
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Re: Uncaught third strike, batter-runner safe at first, when to credit a PB/WP to Catcher/Pitcher? (rule interpretation)

Post by OhioTex » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:31 am

Agree.. No Passed ball deserved in either. . brings me Full circle back to my concern, I can not figure out a good way to enter those plays in iScore. the way i have been entering and how i have recommend to others will generate an extra Passed ball for catcher. :(

I think iScore will "over credit" PB in these sceenrios
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Re: Uncaught third strike, batter-runner safe at first, when to credit a PB/WP to Catcher/Pitcher? (rule interpretation)

Post by Tacho47 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:28 am

The reason why the scoring system of iScore is not able to score it without manually override the stats is due to the fact it does not know "K FC" and "K E" (CEB & IBAF do know)
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Re: Uncaught third strike, batter-runner safe at first, when to credit a PB/WP to Catcher/Pitcher? (rule interpretation)

Post by OhioTex » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:58 am

What are CEB and IBAF .. ?

CEB= ? Confederation of European Baseball ? IBAF = ? International Baseball Federation?
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Re: Uncaught third strike, batter-runner safe at first, when to credit a PB/WP to Catcher/Pitcher? (rule interpretation)

Post by OhioTex » Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:17 am

the questions that started this thread has been answered and recapped in a new request for developers
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11950&p=48443#p48443


that is one way iScore could update their program , to address this... add a couple new buttons to the existing Third Strike Page (there is room)
Add " Safe> Error" and "Safe > Fielders Choice" but do not have PB/WP stats associated with them - good idea.

I had been thinking more along the lines that they developers would need to add rule logic to test when PB/WP required or not for reaching " Safe > Dropped Third Strike" and "Safe > Wild Pitch Third Strike" , but your idea may be easier for them to implement, Leave PB/WP as is , and then just add two buttons that do not have the PB/WP ..Third Strike Reach by " Safe> Error" and "Safe > Fielders Choice".. and let user Figure it out which to hit when. The developers would be able to leverage the existing Fielders choice and Error subroutine code i suspect.


By the way, As i understand it, CEB and IBAF (now WBSC) both use MLB OBR rules as their base. so not sure that impacts the topic at all except to reiterate, it is common rule set
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