Steal with batted ball in play? (discussion)

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ChicagoShep
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Steal with batted ball in play? (discussion)

Post by ChicagoShep » Tue May 23, 2017 4:01 pm

I have a rule question that I am hoping someone can help with. It's been more than 15 years since I was tested on scoring rules, so I want to make sure I'm correct before making a final statement.

A former high-level player challenged my scoring decision regarding a play that involved his son. I'm at a loss as to finding direct language in the MLB rules either direction. Here's the situation:

Runner's on second. Batter hits a ball to right that should be caught. It bounces off the glove of the right fielder and runs away on the turf surface. The preceding runner advances to third and then home, with the batter ending up only on first. I scored it E9, runner advancing home on same error.

This person argues it should be one base error and a stolen base, because the final advance was "unaided by a hit or error." My understanding is that there are no steals once a ball his batted into play. Can someone help?
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OhioTex
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Re: Steal with batted ball in play?

Post by OhioTex » Tue May 23, 2017 4:29 pm

two base error.e9. I can't fathom his stolen base logic. He was 100% aided by an error. You do not get a stolen base on a ball in play.. perhaps I am tiered or other folks can come up with one.

I will look to see if I can find an exact case or citation for you, but hard to find citations for bad ideas. Can't always prove the negative.

The rule governing stolen base is defined in mlb section 9 and section 10 in NCAA (full excerpts at end). In sum
  • MLB 9..07 defines how to credit a stolen base. .. It starts with the assertion you do not get a stolen base on a hit, a putout, an error, a force-out, a fielder’s choice, a passed ball, a wild pitch or a balk and lists a number of specific situations (a-g) - none of which sound like your situation.

    NCAA rule 10, section 11 covers stolen bases and says same thing but states it differently. credited to the base runner whenever he advances a base unaided - again, none of exceptions seems to fit your situation
Put more burden on 'daddy', make him prove he is right. what base was he stealing? Replay w/o the error. He is on second at best, tag and third

if he was trying to steal on less than two outs and a ball that should have been caught i would have hoped he was getting back .



Here are full excerpts from MLB and NCAA on Stolen Base Scoring
MLB 9.07 wrote: The official scorer shall credit a stolen base to a runner whenever the runner advances one base unaided by a hit, a putout, an error, a force-out, a fielder’s choice, a passed ball, a wild pitch or a balk, subject to the following:
  • (a) When a runner starts for the next base before the pitcher delivers the ball and the pitch results in what ordinarily is scored a wild pitch or passed ball, the official scorer shall credit the runner with a stolen base and shall not charge the misplay, unless, as a result of the misplay, the stealing runner advances an extra base, or another runner also advances, in which case the official scorer shall score the wild pitch or passed ball as well as the stolen base.

    (b) When a runner is attempting to steal, and the catcher, after receiving the pitch, makes a wild throw trying to prevent the stolen base, the official scorer shall credit the runner with a stolen base. The official scorer shall not charge an error unless the wild throw permits the stealing runner to advance one or more extra bases, or per- mits another runner to advance, in which case the official scorer shall credit the runner with the stolen base and charge one error to the catcher.

    (c) When a runner, attempting to steal, or after being picked off base, evades being put out in a run-down play and advances to the next base without the aid of an error, the official scorer shall credit the runner with a stolen base. If another runner also advances on the play, the official scorer shall credit both runners with stolen bases. If a runner advances while another runner, attempting to steal, evades being put out in a run-down play and returns safely, without the aid of an error, to the base he originally occupied, the official scorer shall credit a stolen base to the runner who advances.

    (d) When a double- or triple-steal is attempted and one runner is thrown out before reaching and holding the base such runner is attempting to steal, no other runner shall be credited with a stolen base.

    (e) When a runner is tagged out after oversliding a base, while attempting either to return to that base or to advance to the next base, the official scorer shall not credit such runner with a stolen base.

    (f) When in the scorer’s judgment a runner attempting to steal is safe because of a muffed throw, the official scorer shall not credit a stolen base. The official scorer shall credit an assist to the fielder who made the throw, charge an error to the fielder who muffed the throw and charge the runner with “caught stealing.”

    (g) The official scorer shall not score a stolen base when a runner advances solely because of the defensive team’s indifference to the runner’s advance. The official scorer shall score such a play as a fielder’s choice.
source . http://mlb.mlb.com/documents/0/4/0/2249 ... t69t59.pdf
NCAA 10.11 wrote: 10.0 Stolen Base
SECTION 11. a.
A stolen base shall be credited to the base runner whenever he advances a base unaided (such as by a base hit, fielder’s choice, putout, error, balk, base on balls, wild pitch or passed ball).

A stolen base shall be credited when a runner starts for the next base before the pitcher delivers the ball and the pitch results in what would otherwise be scored a passed ball or a wild pitch. Exceptions—
  • 1) Where any runner is thrown out on an attempted double or triple steal, no runner shall be credited with a stolen base.
    • Note: On a double-steal attempt with runners on first and third bases, if there is a legitimate attempt by the fielder to retire the runner at second base and the runner is safe, that runner shall be credited with a stolen base even if the runner from third is thrown out at home on a continuous play.
    2) If a base runner is tagged out while oversliding a base, he shall not be credited with a stolen base.

    3) No stolen base shall be credited to a runner whose advance is the result of the opposing team’s indifference.

    4) When a fielder catches a throw in time to tag a runner who is attempting to steal, but fails to hold the ball or fails to tag the runner, the fielder is charged with an error and the runner is charged as caught stealing. An assist should be credited to the fielder who made the throw.
source: http://www.ncaapublications.com/product ... s/BA18.pdf
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PetroGuy
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Re: Steal with batted ball in play?

Post by PetroGuy » Wed May 24, 2017 8:10 am

Agree with OT on this one. This seems pretty straight forward from the original description. An E9 which caused the ball to run "away on the turf surface". This seems like it would keep a fielder from getting to the ball and getting it home in time. Even if the fielder recovered the ball in time, the scoring would probably be fielder's choice (e.g. throw to second to keep batter from going there, or even hold the ball while trying to decide what to do).
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OhioTex
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Re: Steal with batted ball in play?

Post by OhioTex » Wed May 24, 2017 11:01 am

@ Petro, can you think of ANY example were a stolen base would be credited on a ball in play? I can not, Steals are on a Pitch, not a Ball in play. the best example i could think of would be scoring for a suicide squeeze play. If batter, misses the bunt and runner still makes it home, credit a stolen base. if batter puts ball in play, score it a sac bunt RBI, (or fielders choice or hit based on outcome) but no way do i get a stolen base.

About as close to I was going to see if i could find a MLB example somewhere recent, to prove the point. on a suicide squeeze,
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PetroGuy
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Re: Steal with batted ball in play?

Post by PetroGuy » Wed May 24, 2017 11:45 am

I can't think of any examples. Even squeeze plays are on the pitch or at least with the pitcher having the ball in hand. About the closest I could imagine would be a situation where the defense is a bit too casual throwing the ball in from the field to get to the infield or pitcher and a runner takes off for another base. Even then I would probably call it an FC.
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OhioTex
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Re: Steal with batted ball in play?

Post by OhioTex » Wed May 24, 2017 12:28 pm

PetroGuy wrote:.... About the closest I could imagine would be a situation where the defense is a bit too casual throwing the ball in from the field to get to the infield or pitcher and a runner takes off for another base. Even then I would probably call it an FC....
hmm, you may be on to something,.. for Little league play... scenario when: ball held in outfield and runner takes an extra base... or when: ball thrown back to pitcher but pitcher does not catch and rolls around on ground.. Runner goes first to second.. I think i still go Fielders choice (or Error) .. but getting closer to a potential stolen base.. perhaps there is little league scoring case out there as they have their own rules. But in OBR, Does not fit definition of stolen base. (see end of post for fielders choice definition for scoring)


In honor of Team Mom, got me thinking of Softball, and the ol' running walk to second play, which is more common and is scored a stolen base.. but that is off a walk, not a ball in play. NCAA fast pitch softball scoring rules (below) cover the running walk and they also have a concept of stolen base on an " undefended base" .. including a specific in play hit to right field example..
(for the record, in the baseball example that started this post, home plate would not be considered undefended)
NCAA Fast Pitch Rules wrote:14.14 .... A stolen base is credited:
14.14.9 To a base runner who advances a base when the defense leaves a base undefended in mid-play. Statistically, a stolen base shall be charged to the catcher if she was involved in the play and charged to the “defensive team” if the catcher was not involved in the play.
  • a.r. 14.14.9.1: Following a base on balls, the batter-runner rounds first base and, noticing the in fielders are not defending second base, takes off and safely attains second base. Seeing no fielder, the catcher makes no throw but instead holds onto the ball following the last pitch. RULING: Stolen base is charged to the catcher.

    a.r. 14.14.9.2: Following a single to right field, the batter-runner rounds first base and, noticing the in fielders are not defending second base, takes off and safely attains second base. Seeing no fielder, the right fielder makes no play but instead walks the ball
    into the infield. RULlNG: Stolen base is charged to the “defensive team.”
A search in MLB rules for "Undefended". Produces VALIDATION for Fielders choice,.. Yellow Emphasis Added below.
MLB 'definition of term - Fielders Choice' wrote:
FIELDER’S CHOICE is the act of a fielder who handles a fair grounder and, instead of throwing to first base to put out the batter-run- ner, throws to another base in an attempt to put out a preceding runner. The term is also used by scorers (a) to account for the advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more extra bases when the fielder who handles his safe hit attempts to put out a preceding runner; (b) to account for the advance of a runner (other than by stolen base or error) while a fielder is attempting to put out another runner; and (c) to account for the advance of a runner made solely because of the defensive team’s indifference (undefended steal).
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team mom
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Re: Steal with batted ball in play?

Post by team mom » Thu May 25, 2017 3:45 am

If the ball had been caught, the runner would not have advanced to home. Therefore the parent's assertion that his advance to home was "unaided by error" is incorrect. I believe the OP scored it correctly as advance on error.
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OhioTex
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Re: Steal with batted ball in play?

Post by OhioTex » Thu May 25, 2017 5:03 am

@ChicagoShep - there you have it

three different scorekeepers from across the country with many many games/years of scoring youth, travel, HS, college, pro baseball and fast pitch softball. All had the same initial scoring - No stolen base. even with extra time and further efforts to try and find an exception or loophole to support the alternate view. Reaffirmed- No Stolen Base.
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ChicagoShep
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Re: Steal with batted ball in play? (discussion)

Post by ChicagoShep » Sun May 28, 2017 2:44 pm

Thanks, all. I had also searched and couldn't come up with any validation for the argument, but that sticky piece was that MLB and FEDS don't make the specific statement that steals aren't in-play options (in my mind, hence calling it a stolen base!)
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