To slide or not (discussion)

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KevTN
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To slide or not (discussion)

Post by KevTN » Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:49 am

Just curious of the rules...I am not trying to complain but understand....my daughter is a catcher and on more than one occasion she has been involved in collisions at home. We have been told that runners are suppose to slide at home...I don't know what the rule is...collisions occurs anywhere on the field...

With that being said....what is the rule to protect the fielder and runner from collisions? Or is there one?

Thanks
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OhioTex
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Re: To slide or not

Post by OhioTex » Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:28 pm

Update 10/13: the short answer to the slide required question is NO. the Requirement to slide and automatic out by rule is a myth. "by rule technically NOT required to slide" , but umpire has discretion to call runner out if determines malicious contact or un sportsman like play. lower ages of play or local rules may supersede - but for major rule books researched, not required by rule to slide.
Baseball reference sources - MLB, NCAA NFHS, USSSA, Nations, Little League
Softball fast pitch sources - NPF NCAA NFHS ASA PGF TC USSSA NSA Little League

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Original

@ KevTN, good to hear from you

glad to share my thoughts to help you understand better and encourage others to weigh in.

However your question is pretty broad and without a specific situation and info on your daughters level of play (and hence governing rules) can't respond definitively. That said in general, in higher levels of fast pitch softball play, high School and college, you are generally NOT required to slide by rule, but there are also clauses for safety concerns and umpire judgment.

Yes, there are many rules (and penalties) to address various types of contact in baseball and softball between offensive and defensive players - but the specifics depend on the situation and level of play. Plus there are often differences in level or play and leagues (eg., MLB, NCAA, NFHS, ASA, USSSA , little league, etc) are not the same. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, most all leagues provide for umpires judgement in cases of obstruction (by defense) and interference (by offense).

for example, In general, collisions at first base have been cut down in fast pitch softball with adoption of double bag at first. Major league baseball couple years back adjusted its rules to preclude catchers from blocking plate without the ball to cut down on collisions at home plate. Last year, MLB adjusted their rules and cracked down on runners sliding into second base to cut down on safety concerns of runners trying to break up double plays.

As to the "have to slide" comment... It is a common cry by fans, but at upper levels of play, usually not a "requirement by rule". At some lower age levels like little league, there may be a MUST SlIDE rule. but at higher levels, including High School (NFHS) and College (NCAA) it may be a best practice to slide and right thing to do, but technically not a requirement unless umpire determines malicious contact.

here are some rule quotes from NCAA fast pitch. (I added color for emphasis),
as you can read, safety is a concern but runner is not 100% required to slide but still can be called out for not sliding based on umpire judgment.

NFHS high school softball has very similar rules (see.. NFHS Softball, Rule 8, Section 6, specifically , Article 13 "...runner's are never required to slide..." but can be called out under Article 14 ".. ... if remains on her feet and maliciously crashes into.. ."). leaving the decision up to the umpire.

Source: NCAA Softball 2016/2017
Rule 12 Base Running
....
12.13.2 In order to prevent injury and protect the defensive player attempting to make a play on a runner, the runner must be called out if she remains on her feet and deliberately, with great force, crashes into a defensive player holding the ball and waiting to apply a tag. In order to prevent a deliberate crash ruling, the runner can slide, jump over the top of the defender holding the ball, go around the defender or return to the previous base touched.

EFFECT—The ball is dead. The runner is called out for deliberately crashing into a fielder, even if the ball is dislodged. If the runner deliberately crashed into a fielder holding the ball before she was put out and, in the umpire’s judgment, it was an attempt to break up an obvious double play, the offender and player being played on shall both be declared out. If the deliberate crash occurs after the runner was called out, the runner closest to home plate will also be declared out. If an obstructed runner deliberately crashes into a fielder holding the ball, the obstruction call will be ignored, and the runner will be called out. Note: If the act is determined to be flagrant, the offender will be ejected for misconduct under Rule 13 (Behavioral ejection).

Rule 12.13. 4 The runner, although not required to slide to avoid contact with the defensive player, slides in a manner that, in the umpire’s judgment, was malicious (for example, spikes up)

Rule 12.13.5 The runner shall not slide out of the baseline nor outside her reach of the base she is attempting to slide into in order to slide directly at a fielder.

EFFECT—(12.13.4 and 12.13.5)—The ball is dead, the offending runner is out and ejected, and each other runner shall return to the last base legally touched at the time of the infraction. (Behavioral ejection; see Rule 13.2.1.)
numerous other rules exist for interference and obstruction at bases or between bases, but hope this helps.

Post back for any follow on questions or clarifications

/Charles
Last edited by OhioTex on Thu Oct 13, 2016 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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KevTN
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Re: To slide or not

Post by KevTN » Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:45 pm

Thanks OhioTex...I was trying to be general for reason in that I didn't want to 'start argument.' I have asked this of umps and have never received the same answer twice. She plays 16&18 ASA A (cpl of top five in nationals and has played in three HS state championships winning two) but collisions have occurred since she started catching in 10u. This past weekend she was in a play day she recieved the ball as runner came around third and clearly had the ball in control well ahead of runner but runner never end slowed down and extended arms after the collision. So I thought I would ask what the rule was kinda generally so I can understand that's all.

I didn't want to sound over protective lol.
Thanks
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OhioTex
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Re: To slide or not

Post by OhioTex » Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:12 pm

I don't think adding detail would be perceived as argumentative. i know i am biased, but i think this community does a good job exchanging support and info positively. :)

I recalled from your posts your daughter plays competitive fast pitch but had lost track of Age/level. Sounds like she is now a SR in high school. BTW, Congrats on the state championships. What state and level?? Does your DD have any collegiate playing aspirations? IF so, best of luck in that search/decision process.

After research and confirmation for NPF, NCAA, NFHS, PGF, ASA, USSSA, NSA and even Little League Softball At your age and level of play -by rule, Runners are NOT required to slide, not an automatic out for failing to slide but umpires reserve the right to call runner out ( and even eject) for malicious contact for unsportsman like play. . As a veteran of travel tournament scene, you understand the inconsistency of umpires and 'collision contact' is one that relies heavily on their judgement.

as to ASA, i have not done ASA tournaments in a while. But my references tell me that ASA fast pitch does not 'require slide' either. I do not have the ASA rule book handy to cite chapter and verse, but a review of published differences by ASA between ASA /NCAA/NFHS does not mention any slide rule differences . So I assume same as for NFHS and NCAA.

Tournaments of course can vary, append and follow different rules. In fast pitch u16/u18 Tripple crown fast pitch events, tend to follow ASA while PGF events tend to follow NFHS rules as a base. Others like USSSA, NSA and Little League have their own rule books but i am less familiar with them and they don't have as many high school level events in our region. but a quick look up shows neither require slides. USSSA, Section Rule 8. 18. B "Runners are never required to slide but, if the runner elects to slide, the slide shall be legal".) NSA Sec 8 (t). "The National Softball Association does NOT require baserunners to slide". even official, Little League rule book does not require. 2015 Little League Baseball® and Little League Softball® Rulebooks. Rule 7.08 (a) (3) There is no “must-slide” rule . When the fielder has the ball and is waiting to make the tag, the runner has two options: 1. Slide; or 2. Attempt to get around the fielder. The runner must NOT deliberately or maliciously contact the fielder, but he is NOT required to slide.

So I am NOT finding sliding "required" in any major rule books, baseball or softball. of course local rules could supersede especially in local church, elementary school or rec leagues.

given all this research and findings, I updated my original response with a Summary caption of this thread to reflect the rule book sources research..


FYI - I also have posted links for rule resources here..
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11399&p=46361#p46361
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KevTN
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Re: To slide or not

Post by KevTN » Fri Oct 14, 2016 5:52 am

Thanks OhioTex. My DD is actually a JR. TN allows 8th graders to play HS level if the middle school is on the same grounds as the HS or a 'direct' feed to it. She committed to Lipscomb University in Dec. so she is a 2018 grad.

Thank you for your informatioin and insights!! they are very helpful!

Kevin
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OhioTex
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Re: To slide or not

Post by OhioTex » Fri Oct 14, 2016 6:02 am

Congrats and good luck to her and Lipscomb. / charles
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