FC or Hit?

markin · Post by **markin** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:28 pm

Runner on first. Batter hits a hard slap down the third base line. Third baseman dives and catches ball on a hop (no line drive out). Runner was stealing and reaches second base, but mistakenly thinks ball was caught and returns back towards first. Runner is then thrown out at second. Is this still an FC even though runner was at second safely?

Post by **mprusak** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 1:52 pm

Just guessing, but assuming it would have been ruled a hit without the runner mistake, then I would score this a hit. Runner advanced by batter (no SB). Then runner tagged out and would probably use other for the reason.

ixamnis · Post by **ixamnis** » Wed Jul 22, 2015 6:46 pm

Wow, this is one of the better scorekeeping questions.

I am curious was the runner called out on a tag then or was the force at second back on and fielder just needed to touch the bag? I haven't found anything yet in the NCAA softball rules that speaks directly to this play. Could the runner also have been called out for leaving the base or running the base in reverse order?

For now I'd have scored it a hit for the batter and the runner advanced to second, batter held up at first and then before the next pitch I'd have touched the runner at second and recorded them out as a pick off/tag out. I'm still looking for the correct answer though.

Again, great question.

Taxi_dad · Post by **Taxi_dad** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 3:07 am

The question is: did the runner reach the second base? If he run over the Base yes; if he was oversliding the Base no. If he got the base no force out and base hit for the runner. The runner is tagged AFTER reaching second. If the runner did not reach the second Base safely, force out at second and FC for the batter.
Bye

ixamnis · Post by **ixamnis** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 5:09 am

Original post said the runner reached second base. But then headed back to first, thinking the ball had been caught.

Wonder if it makes any difference how many outs there were at the time?

Post by **PetroGuy** » Thu Jul 23, 2015 7:20 am

I'm not sure of this, but I would score it as an FC.

2015 MLB rule 5.06.b.2:

(7.03(b)) If a runner is forced to advance by reason of the
batter becoming a runner and two runners are touching a
base to which the following runner is forced, the following
runner is entitled to the base and the preceding runner
shall be out when tagged or when a fielder possesses the
ball and touches the base to which such preceding runner
is forced.

To me, this indicates the runner is still in a force situation. If another runner is forced out, the batter cannot be credited with a hit. Even though the runner had advanced to second, they have given up that base by returning towards first. The runner must go to second before trying to advance to third. Since the above rule states the fielder can simply touch second base to retire the runner, then I would still consider it a force out.

ixamnis · Post by **ixamnis** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 5:33 am

I can not find a rule with similar wording in the NCAA softball rules. A high school softball umpire indicated to me that the runner mistakenly heading back to first after gaining second would have to be tagged out. I haven't got a reply back as to whether he would have called it a hit or a FC. He also admitted he wasn't totally sure of the answer. And so it goes.

ixamnis · Post by **ixamnis** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:26 am

The consensus is looking like a fielders choice. Div 1 NCAA softball umpire says (second hand) the runner heading back to first by mistake would have to be tagged out. The batter however is not given a hit, but fielders choice. High school umpire also had it as FC.

Original post was never clear on if this happened in a baseball or softball game.

Post by **OhioTex** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:19 pm

I find the umpire point of view most interesting on the need to tag .... I do not think it would matter if baseball or softball... I would think force still in play

Hope someone can pull up a case reference on tag now needed.. W runner between first and second base....

Post by **OhioTex** » Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:56 pm

Ok, i am going to challange the umps claiming a tag needed - by rule force is back On at two. no case book reference needed. Straight rule interpretation on the Force out. .. Emphasis added in pull quote below..

In my experience, for high school and college Softball or any other asssociation- MLB ORB guides, unless explicitly stated otherwise or an obvious deviation from MLB. If the softball ump can not point to a league specific rule or case to contradict MLB - I think below quote holds,

( so in sum - agree with PetroGuy post, technically correct scoring should be FC not a HIT. Preceeding runnner out and a fielders choice not a hit ).

MLB RULE 5.09(b)6

He or the next base is tagged before he touches the next base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner. However, if a following runner is put out on a force play, the force is removed and the runner must be tagged to be put out. The force is removed as soon as the runner touches the base to which he is forced to advance, and if he overslides or overruns the base, the runner must be tagged to be put out. However, if the forced runner, after touching the next base, retreats for any reason towards the base he had last occupied, the force play is reinstated, and he can again be put out if the defense tags the base to which he is forced;

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