Fielder's Choice or Error?

[mitcharf]

I've got a question on how to score a particular play. The situation:

Bases loaded, one out. Batter hits a line drive to the shortstop, who drops it. The drop was not deliberate, and the catch should have been made with routine effort. Definitely not an infield fly situation, however, as it was clearly a line drive. The ball rolls away a short distance. The runner from third base scores, but the the shortstop is able to retrieve the ball in time to throw to the third baseman to force out the runner coming from second base. The runner from first reaches second safely, and the batter reaches first safely.

My main question is whether I score this as a fielder's choice or a reach on error for the batter. Regardless of which I choose, it's clear to me that the runner who scored did so because of the shortstop's error (rather than advanced by batter), since had the shortstop caught the ball, the runner on third base would have stayed where they were. But for everyone else, here are the arguments I see for either scoring choice:

Fielder's Choice: While the shortstop did drop the ball, they still did make an out. Had the runner on third not scored (say the shortstop threw home to get that force out, rather than at third base), then the resulting situation would have been exactly the same as if they had caught the ball -- bases loaded, one out recorded. The identity of the base runners would have been different, but I don't know that that matters.

Error: It seems a little dishonest to say that the batter reached base due to a fielder's choice. The batter would not have reached base if the fielder had not made an error. It only turned into a possible fielder's choice situation after the error. Similarly, the runner from first base only got to second base because of the error. Had the error not happened, the runner on first would have stayed on first.

The more I think about it, the more I think error is the right option, but I wanted to run it by the group here to see if anyone had any other thoughts about it.

[mitcharf]

However, I just tried to score it that way, and ran into a problem. If I say that the batter reached on error, it never gives me the opportunity to say which fielders recorded the out on the runner coming from second base. It asks me what happened to the runner on second, and I can say they were forced out at third base, but it doesn't ask me who put them out. In the scorebook it just says FO8 (it was the 8th batter in the lineup who was at bat). Is this a bug?

[OhioTex]

the runner forced out at third should have had a propt to show 6-5 assist and put out.
What device are you using Iphone or Ipad or Andorid? there should have been the ability to touch fielders on the out to define put out and assists. I am going to test a couple things and then post on the Issues page..

I would score, reach due to error, Especially since the lead runner scored a clean play and he would not have scored. . runner at 3rd advanced to home due to error (same error, even if you tap SS twice, isocre is smart enough to count as only one).

[team mom]

I believe most rules will state that no error is charged if an out is made on the play, even if it is not the lead runner.

m - No error is charged if an out is made on that immediate play,
even if it changes the option of getting a lead out to getting an out
behind the lead
NFCA Homeplate: ATEC: Beyond The Basics of Scoring Fastpitch Softball

I believe there is a similar rule in baseball.

So I would score a fielder's choice.
Credit a fielder's choice 3 when a ball is put in play where a play is made on any lead runner and an out
occurs, or an out would have occurred had no error taken place, or the runner is
safe, but the batter would have been out had the initial play been made at first.

[mprusak]

I'm with Team Mom...I believe this is a FC and RBI.

[OhioTex]

slight difference of opinion . open for correction/ discussion. (respectfully)

agree Team Mom , fielders choice does not have to be on the lead runner. (my emphasis on lead runner was more about the pain, was not being overly clear on my logic).

My extended logic..
(assuming the line drive was routinely catchable as stated) .

Intuitively the error proceeded the choice (not that logic and intuitiveness always align with technical rules) . .

A review of MLB definition of fielders choices, shows is terms of fair grounders, A review of NCAA softball rules show fielders choice is in terms of a ground ball .. I wonder if that technical difference grounder or line drive, is intentional and comes into play.

This is about more than just the batter ROE or FC. As we also have to account for the lead runner coming home.. Is that on error or fielders choice? . I would have assigned as on error not fielders choice. A correlating point is how we handle batters RBI? (although batters Avg is same Fielders choice or reach on error, the RBI credit is different). Would you credit an RBI to batter on this or not? , batter is credited with a RBI on the FC but not on the ROE. which points me to ROE not fielders choices. Earned and unearned runs also come into play and shed light, depending on how /when third out is reached, but not going there as do not have the extra situational detail..

Some supporting rule quotes.

1) I always like ATEC for their extra definitions .. but i did note some potential conflicting points in ATEC comments to support both positions
. Specifically look at O. (copied below)

Pulling from ATEC
m - No error is charged if an out is made on that immediate play, even if it changes the option of getting a lead out to getting an out behind the lead

o - No error is charged when a ball is misplayed that was hit so hard more than ordinary effort is needed to play the ball. If the ball goes in the pocket of the glove and then Is dropped, score an error if an out would have been made without the drop, except as noted in q.

q - No error is charged if the fielder drops a ball after running a considerable distance to catch it, or if she fails in her attempt to catch it while running at a high rate of speed.

r - No error is charged on a dropped line drive if the fielder moved more than a few steps to catch it.



Pulling from MLB (FC definition is oriented towards fair ground balls and RBI Credits for runners advanced on fielders choice but not errors. )
MLB 2.o
FIELDER’S CHOICE is the act of a fielder who handles a fair grounder and, instead of throwing to first base to put out the batter-runner, throws to another base in an attempt to put out a preceding runner. The term is also used by scorers (a) to account for the advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more extra bases when the fielder who handles his safe hit attempts to put out a preceding runner; (b) to account for the advance of a runner (other than by stolen base or error) while a fielder is attempting to put out another runner; and (c) to account for the advance of a runner made solely because of the defensive team’s indifference (undefended steal).


10.04(a) The official scorer shall credit the batter with a run batted in for every run that scores
(1) unaided by an error and as part of a play begun by the batter’s safe hit (including the batter’s home run), sacrifice bunt, sacrifice fly, infield out or fielder’s choice, unless Rule 10.04(b) applies;

[team mom]

I think I would agree with you had an out not been made. But since the fielder recovered enough to score an out, I would still go with the FC. WOuld probably also ask the coach for a second opinion.

[OhioTex]

you give the batter an RBI too?

[team mom]

Yes, because I think the RBI goes hand in hand with the FC.

[OhioTex]

Well, that is what is fun about the forum.. in this case, you and mprusak helping me see the light. .

can certainly make the MLB 10.12 (d) 4 case to support your point. FC . Just pictured in my mind E6 .
...
10.12 errors
(d) The official scorer shall not charge an error against:
(4) any fielder when, after fumbling a ground ball or dropping a batted ball that is in flight or a thrown ball, the fielder recovers the ball in time to force out a runner at any base; or

So technically correct no error to the short stop since he/she recovered and maked an out. then, if not an erorr then a fielders choice and an RBI.

I suspect i would have scored it wrong if doing it live. ( E- Ohio Tex)

(there is still a software technical fix discussion on iPhone/ipad as mentioned in other thread)