Earned runs in ambiguous (to iScore) situations

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JRG
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Earned runs in ambiguous (to iScore) situations

Post by JRG » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:57 am

Have been in some discussions with Dads/Coaches about un/earned runs. I've never really focused on how earned and unearned runs are determined, but it seems like there are scenarios where the app CANNOT know with for sure whether a run is earned or unearned. I'd be interested to know if other have faced similar situations and how they have addressed?

Consider the following scenarios. Though A and B are scored identically, an observer of the game that knows that the earned runs are different in the two scenarios. iScore does not have the data to recognize the difference in these scenarios and therefore must make an assumption.

SCENARIO A
First batter in the inning, Abel, hits a double to RF and attempts to stretch it into a triple.
The throw from RF arrives at 3B on the money in ample time for an out.
Third baseman, Roger, drops the ball before making the tag.
Abel is safe at 3B
Play is scored as Double with runner reaching 3B on E5.
Baker hits HR. Two runs scored.
Charlie strikes out.
Daniel strikes out.
Edward hits HR.
Billy strikes out.
Total Runs: 3 / Earned Runs: 1 -- Abel's run is UNEARNED as he would not have been on base with error-less play. Baker's run in EARNED. Edward's run is UNEARNED as Daniel's preceding strikeout would have been the third out and Edward would not have batted in the inning.

SCENARIO B
First batter in the inning, Abel, hits a double to RF and attempts to stretch it into a triple.
The throw from RF arrives at 3B on the money in ample time for an out.
Upon seeing the throw, the third base coach tells Abel to hold up. Abel breaks back to 2B.
Roger fails to make catch and no one is backing up the throw.
Abel reverses course again and safely reaches 3B
Play is scored as Double with runner reaching 3B on E5.
Baker hits HR. Two runs scored.
Charlie strikes out.
Daniel strikes out.
Edward hits HR.
Billy strikes out.
Total Runs: 3 / Earned Runs: 3 -- All three runs are EARNED as Abel would have been on 2B with error-less play and would have scored on Baker's HR. Additionally, Daniel's strikeout would have only been the second out and Edward would have batted.
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FTMSupport
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Re: Earned runs in ambiguous (to iScore) situations

Post by FTMSupport » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:16 am

You are correct, and this has been brought up before. There is a difference between being safe because of an error, and a runner advancing because an error occurred. For now, the solution would be to edit the ER stat post game when you know the situation better than iScore. In the future, we plan to add an enhancement for those that are savvy enough to know the distinction to enter the plays correctly.
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PetroGuy
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Re: Earned runs in ambiguous (to iScore) situations

Post by PetroGuy » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:16 pm

Is there any place on the scorecard that indicates whether a particular run that scored is earned or not? Using the example above does Able's record on the scorecard have anything different to indicate earned/unearned. If not, that would be a nice addition. A different color for the run or something like that would be nice.
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FTMSupport
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Re: Earned runs in ambiguous (to iScore) situations

Post by FTMSupport » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:24 pm

The scorecard does not indicate earned vs unearned runs... just runs. We have had this request before and it is on our enhancement list for future prioritization.
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JRG
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Re: Earned runs in ambiguous (to iScore) situations

Post by JRG » Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:57 am

+1 to PetroGuy's suggestion. A different shading of the diamond for E vs. UE run would be sweet.

Thanks again guys!
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OhioTex
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Re: Earned runs in ambiguous (to iScore) situations

Post by OhioTex » Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:04 pm

++1. That would be nice addition..

This reminds me, not sure we say it enough...the PDF scorecard is outstanding! And It has been there since version 1. A few tweaks along the way, but for the most part it has been a core to the product, since day 1. I do not think we say it often enough how great it is and the detail it has continues to outshine compeitor products (IMHO). Plus Much better than what I generated by hand pre iscore.. For me. it was probably the very first reasons I bought iscore.. B/c I liked the idea of all coaches getting to see the scorecard immediately after the game, instead one coach taking it home and it perhaps never being seen again..

Thanks FTM !
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FTMSupport
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Re: Earned runs in ambiguous (to iScore) situations

Post by FTMSupport » Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:16 pm

Thanks OT.
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Dkriesel
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Re: Earned runs in ambiguous (to iScore) situations

Post by Dkriesel » Sun Nov 13, 2011 6:23 pm

I am currently trying to find out a better way. the only way is to review the scorecard and the pitching stats to see if it matches. If a player reaches base on an error, that would count as an unearned run. If they reach base by hit, walk, HBP then that is an earned run. In my cases, it is not counting all the earned runs, in some cases it is counting earned runs as unearned. In your first scene, all three runs would be earned due to the girl getting on base by a hit, regardless if there was a throwing error from the outfield to 3B. That girl earned that run, meaning she reached base by getting a hit. How I determine errors, if the play is a normal play that should be made and was not, then I would make that an error. Ex. If the ball goes between the girls leg, then an error. If a girl (SS) is trying to get a hard hit ball that is traveling up the middle on SS side and she gets a glove on it but still goes into the outfield, base hit. We had a girl today that had a sharp ball come to her and took a bounce and got by her, that was a base hit. It was hit hard and not a normal play. she did not get a glove on it. Hope this helps.
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grstatdoc
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Re: Earned runs in ambiguous (to iScore) situations

Post by grstatdoc » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:11 am

[quote="Dkriesel"]I am currently trying to find out a better way. the only way is to review the scorecard and the pitching stats to see if it matches. If a player reaches base on an error, that would count as an unearned run. If they reach base by hit, walk, HBP then that is an earned run. In my cases, it is not counting all the earned runs, in some cases it is counting earned runs as unearned. In your first scene, all three runs would be earned due to the girl getting on base by a hit, regardless if there was a throwing error from the outfield to 3B. That girl earned that run, meaning she reached base by getting a hit. How I determine errors, if the play is a normal play that should be made and was not, then I would make that an error. Ex. If the ball goes between the girls leg, then an error. If a girl (SS) is trying to get a hard hit ball that is traveling up the middle on SS side and she gets a glove on it but still goes into the outfield, base hit. We had a girl today that had a sharp ball come to her and took a bounce and got by her, that was a base hit. It was hit hard and not a normal play. she did not get a glove on it. Hope this helps.[/quote]

Let's unpack this...
The only correct way to determine earned vs. unearned runs is to reconstruct the inning without the errors (NCAA SB Rule 14.24.1: Earned runs are runs for which the pitcher is statistically accountable and the offense deserves to have scored (earned). An earned run shall be charged against the pitcher when a runner scores as a result of a base on balls, a fielder’s choice, a hit, a putout, a batter hit by a pitch, an illegal pitch, a sacrifice bunt, a sacrifice fly, a stolen base and a wild pitch (including a third strike wild pitch). Earned runs are determined by reconstructing the inning as if there were no errors or passed balls. The pitcher should be given the benefit of the doubt in determining the advancement of runners had the defensive
team been errorless.


That said, any player who reaches on an error will be unearned, as you noted. (It's also true that any player whose life on the bases was prolonged by an error will also be unearned)
However, it may well happen that a player who reaches and scores without the aid of error(s) may become unearned in that inning when an error occurred earlier (so just because a player reaches on a hit, walk, HBP or FC does not automatically mean that she will be an earned run should she score).
Consider the following: B1 is safe on an E6. B2 pops out, P4. B3 walks (B1 to second). B4 strikes out (Ks).
***at the point the inning should have ended, but the E6 has prolonged the inning.***
B5 hit home run to LF, scoring three runs.
***Even though B3 and B5 reached base and scored w/o error, they, along with B1, are marked unearned because the inning should have ended with the strikeout***
Discussions of an error that allows extra advance(s) (like a batter hitting a base hit to right and advances to third because the RF misplayed the ball for a two-base E9) are not under discussion here, but also adds the question of would a runner have scored without the error. It's a separate, but important aspect of determining earned/unearned runs.
(If the rule book is not the NCAA SB one, then do use the rules appropriate for the age and level of play)
I do encourage you to post questions about earned runs to the forum, as there are a lot of experienced scorers who can help navigate the thicket and guide in inputting it into iScore. And it will help you learn how to determine when runs are earned/unearned, which will make you a better scorer
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