Two fielder's choice questions

[mitcharf]

I have two questions relating to fielder's choices:

1) Runners on first and second base, no outs. Batter lines the ball into left field. The runner on second base is slow, and the left fielder throws to third base in time for the force out. Is this a fielder's choice or a single? My first reaction was fielder's choice, because the batter reached base but one of the other runners was forced out. But then I got thinking about it, and I recalled that FC is defined (roughly) as when a fielder who has a clear opportunity to force the batter out at first base instead chooses to make a play on another runner. And in this case, the left fielder had no play on any runners other than the one going to third base. So I'm thinking it should go as a hit. Is that right?

2) Runner on first base, no outs. Batter hits a routine grounder to shortstop. They try to make the easy throw to second base but their throw is in the dirt and the second baseman can't handle it, so the runner from first base is safe. Is the correct iScore scoring here: fielder's choice, runner from first base is safe at second base on error by shortstop, and the batter is safe at first base "advanced by batter"?

Thanks!

[danmcc]

1) I'm not sure of the official rule but I would give the hit to the batter in the scenario you described. I will be curious to see the posts of those move versed in the official rules. I learn a lot from them.

2) FC, error by short stop, held up at first.

[FTMSupport]

For #1, sadly (for the batter anyway), if the runner going from second to third is FORCED out (as you describe), it is a Fielder's Choice. Any time there is a force out on a runner, it is a Fielder's Choice.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/of ... rer_10.jsp

10.05
(b) The official scorer shall not credit a base hit when a:
(1) runner is forced out by a batted ball, or would have been forced out except for a fielding error;

There are no exceptions saying "unless the batter would have been safe if nobody was on base" or anything like that.


For #2, it is exactly as danmcc describes.

[Camerabry]

But it seems like it would be impossible for the left fielder to make a play on the batter. I'd be hard pressed to give it a fielders choice unless I was scoring pros.

[mitcharf]

It would have been impossible for the left fielder to make a play on the batter, even at the pro level I suspect. But I agree with FTM that the rule does seem pretty clear. It seems silly to "punish" the batter for what would otherwise be a base hit in the absence of base runners, but on the other hand, we "credit" the batter for a sacrifice fly (which would be a mere fly out in the absence of base runners). So I guess it's not unprecedented to have the base runner situation influence how the same batted ball would be scored.

Anyway, in my case I'm scoring an ASA softball league, so I'll double check to see if their scoring rules contain the same language.

[mitcharf]

I found a 2007 ASA softball rule book, and they have pretty much the same language.

Rule 11, Section 3.
A BASE HIT shall not be scored:
A. When a runner is forced out on a batter ball or would have been except for a fielding error.

I can't provide a link, since ASA likes to sell you their rule books and not post them online. But as FTM said, there's no language to except the case that there is no possible play on the batter.

[PetroGuy]

I agree with mitcharf and FTM on this. Even though it seems to penalize the batter, there are situations (sacrifices being the most obvious) where the runners can help a batters average and OBP. teammom has mentioned it in several posts that the most important factor is to remain consistent. I have found that using the rules, even when they don't always make sense, keeps me more consistent in my judgement.